Talk:Pierre Trudeau

Trudeaus studies abroad

There is nothing on this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.36.68 (talk) 22:42, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Pierre Trudeau family

Pierre Trudeau family

name	relationship	birth	death	notes
Joseph-Charles-Émile Trudeau	father	1887	1935	our article asserted, without substantiation, that he and Grace had four children
Grace Trudeau nee Elliott	mother
Suzette Trudeau	sister	1918	2008
Pierre Elliott Trudeau	self	1919	1999
Charles Trudeau (1922-)	brother	1922
Margaret Trudeau	wife	1948		Mother to Trudeau's children Justin Trudeau, Alexandre Trudeau, Michel Trudeau
Deborah Coyne	girlfriend	1955		bore his last child Sarah Coyne
Justin Trudeau	son	1971		husband to Sophie Grégoire father to Xavier James Trudeau, Ella-Grace Margaret Trudeau, Hadrien Trudeau
Alexandre Trudeau	son	1973		husband to Zoë Bedos father of Pierre-Emmanuel Trudeau, Gala Simone Trudeau, Ariane Léa Trudeau
Michel Trudeau	son	1975	1998
Sophie Grégoire	daughter-in-law	1975		wife of Justin Trudeau mother to Xavier James Trudeau, Ella-Grace Margaret Trudeau, Hadrien Trudeau
Zoë Bedos	daughter-in-law			wife of Alexandre Trudeau mother of Pierre-Emmanuel Trudeau, Gala Simone Trudeau, Ariane Léa Trudeau
Sarah Coyne	daughter	1991		child of Pierre Trudeau and Debra Coyne
Pierre-Emmanuel Trudeau	grandson	2006		child of Alexandre Trudeau and Zoë Bedos
Xavier James Trudeau	grandson	2007		child of Justin Trudeau and Sophie Grégoire
Gala Simone Trudeau	granddaughter	2008		child of Alexandre Trudeau and Zoë Bedos
Ella-Grace Margaret Trudeau	granddaughter	2009		child of Justin Trudeau and Sophie Grégoire
Ariane Léa Trudeau	granddaughter	2011		child of Alexandre Trudeau and Zoë Bedos
Hadrien Trudeau	grandson	2014		child of Justin Trudeau and Sophie Grégoire

• Please note that not every person in this table is automatically going to get a Wikipedia article just for the fact of being related to Pierre Trudeau, per WP:NOTINHERITED. Only people who can be reliably sourced as having their own independent notability for their own independent accomplishments get Wikipedia articles of their own — fleshing out Pierre Trudeau's (or Justin's) genealogy is not a thing that gets a person a Wikipedia article if "relative of famous person" is the biggest bestest notability claim you can come up with. Accordingly, this is not a table it's valuable for us to even maintain in the first place — anybody here who isn't already a blue link isn't going to become one just for the fact of being a member of the Trudeau clan. Bearcat (talk) 14:38, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• Don't fear the redlink. Redlinks are useful. I am restoring the redlink to Charles Trudeau. Geo Swan (talk) 05:16, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

• Redlinks are only useful insofar as the redlinked topic is actually eligible to become a bluelink. A redlink that will always be a redlink, because the topic has no claim of notability that would actually get them over any of Wikipedia's inclusion tests, is not a useful or valuable thing for us to maintain. Bearcat (talk) 10:08, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
  • Well, no, redlinks also are very useful in finding other related articles.

Suppose, for the sake of argument, you were interested in reading about Zoë Bedos, Justin's sister-in-law. If the wikilink for Zoe Bedos is left a redlink, after clicking on it, you can access its "what links here" button -- even though the article itself doesn't exist.

What should you find? Incoming links from Justin Trudeau, Alexandre Trudeau and Sophie Gregoire. You might also find incoming links related to her day job, her schooling, her other interests. I googled her, and found her described as "working in the stationary business". So, our reader might find links to articles on stationary, or Canadian business, that have references that could be re-used if and when an article on Ms Bedos is started.

So, really, don't fear the red-link. Geo Swan (talk) 16:45, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

I "fear" nothing. But no article should be started about Zoe Bedos on Wikipedia until such time as she satisfies a Wikipedia notability rule on the basis of substantive coverage about her in reliable sources, and nothing is gained by maintaining redlinks about people who fail that criterion pending the possibility that they might eventually come to do so. If and when she does, her name can be linked in the appropriate articles once the article exists — but a permanent redlink for a person who as far as we know today will never qualify for a Wikipedia article serves absolutely nobody. Bearcat (talk) 23:33, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

I guess there is an off chance that some of the grandchildren will, some day, become WP worthy, but really, I doubt it.... So, they will be redlinked forever. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:41, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Justin as the first prime minister to be "related to" another? I think "descended from" would be more accurate. If you compare the Wikipedia article on Zacharie Cloutier and the Trudeaus' genealogical connection to him as given at https://gw.geneanet.org/loiseau?l1=0&l2=11&lang=fr&m=RL&n=cloutier&n1=cloutier&n2=trudeau&nz=loiseau&ocz=0&p=zacharie&p1=zacharie&p2=justin+pierre+james&pz=jean+francois+gerard+roger, you'll find that together they imply Pierre and Justin are distant cousins of Louis St. Laurent. It may well be that a similar relationship might exist between two previous prime ministers, but I don't have any evidence to that effect. Musicbear180 (talk) 17:05, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Well, sure, virtually everybody with any French Canadian ancestry at all can claim some degree of relation to absolutely any of the others, if you throw the complex web of second and third cousins and marriages into the mix — and if we actually had documentation far enough back in history to precisely nail down the genealogies involved, DNA studies have already shown that every single human who is alive today has one common ancestor, making us all some ordinal value of cousins. So for the purposes of an encyclopedia, we don't care about that — we care only about documentable direct ancestry, not about whether people are "implied" (but not documented by reliable sources) as being distant cousins. And user-generated genealogy databases are not reliable sources — until a media outlet or a book directly states that the Trudeaus are related to Louis St. Laurent, we don't care about circumstantial evidence derived from synthesizing two different genealogies that haven't already been linked together by outside sources. Nosorigines.qc.ca, for example, gives an "Aucun lien trouvée - no match found" if you search for a Zacharie Cloutier→Justin Trudeau bloodline (which doesn't mean they aren't still connected in a more distant way, but it does mean the Geneanet claim of a direct-ancestry link is questionable.) Instead it links St. Laurent to the Trudeaus via Pierre Miville and Charlotte Mauger, not via Zacharie Cloutier, and every French Canadian Prime Minister Canada has ever had — Wilfrid Laurier, Louis St. Laurent, Jean Chrétien, Paul Martin and the Trudeaus — has at least one common ancestor with each of the others (though not always the same one), so the Trudeaus being distantly connected to St. Laurent is hardly unique. Bearcat (talk) 18:53, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

Edit-warring to add an unflattering image of Trudeau

There has been edit-warring to add an unflattering image of Trudeau instead of the stable one. I find the proposed new image technically inferior and unflattering. It looks as if Trudeau has one finger at his nose disrupting the visual flow of his face. Comments are welcome. Thank you. Dr. K. 07:19, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

The proposed picture definitely looks more austere and flattering. However, the proposed picture has the face at roughly a 3/4 profile and has the finger in the front blocking parts of his face, making it technically inferior and of less encyclopedic value. The current picture, while less serious, is of higher encyclopedic value because it shows the entire face without obstruction.---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 10:31, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

There is no reason the change the original picture. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:04, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Edit warring about multiculturalism, economics etc

Today there has been a series of edits that have been reverted by at least three of us, about economics and multiculturalism. I encouraged the user, on his/her talk page [1], making these edits to discuss them here. Dbrodbeck (talk) 18:54, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

Economy and Multiculturalism

Hi Folks, I have been trying to add a section entitled "Economy", which is truthful but frankly unflattering, to Pierre Trudeau. The content is as follows: On the economic front, Trudeau did far more damages to his country than he was willing to recognize. His economic policies were proven disastrous. As an unfortunately consequence of his 15-year ruthless reign, the economy of Canada was at the edge of collapse in 1984, when his liberal government was replaced by the Conservatives. As an illustrative example, the annual inflation rate of Canada increased quickly and steadily from 4.06% when Trudeau took office in 1968 to 10.97% in 1974 and peaked at 12.47% in 1981, a record that has never been neared in Canada's history ever since. [1] Likewise, the annual unemployment rate of Canada was around 4% when Pierre took office in 1968. This number doubled up to 8% in 1978 and peaked at 12% in 1982. The highest monthly unemployment rate of 13.1% was also inked into Canadian history by Pierre Trudeau in December 1982.[2]

However, despite of all my labors, the edits were always reverted without explanation. [1] http://www.inflation.eu/inflation-rates/canada/historic-inflation/cpi-inflation-canada.aspx [2] http://www.davemanuel.com/historical-unemployment-rates-in-canada.php

Well, if you think my descriptions are not factual, let's talk.

Thank you for coming to the talk page. Neither of those references mention PM Trudeau. You are engaging in WP:OR. The reverts of your edits were explained in the edit summaries and you can see that if you look at the history of the edits to the page. Wikipedia has a number of policies, you should check them out. A welcome message was left on your talk page, it is full of useful links. Dbrodbeck (talk) 19:54, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

As you can see, I am new to Wikimedia and still on the learning curve. I was adding some critical opinions based on statistical data extracted from the cited sources. Well, if you say it is against the policies of Wikipedia then it is against the policies. I will reword it and have a try later.

Your interpretation of data, or mine, is irrelevant, it is WP:OR. That is what you are doing with this edit [2]. Please revert it. Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:40, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• Perhaps best that edits are proposed here first before a block is issued. No harm is proposals.-- Moxy (talk) 20:48, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

How the following is not neutal? It is a mere summary of economic data!

It is worth noting that the annual inflation rate of Canada was 4.06% when Trudeau took the office in 1968 but ended up to be 10.97% in 1974 and further increased in his late terms to a historical record of 12.47% in 1982. Likewise, the unemployment of Canada was less than 4% in 1968 but quickly increased to approximately 7.8% in 1974 and climbed further to peak at 13.1% in the December of 1982 in his last term.

The sources do not mention Trudeau. You are interpreting data, we don't do that. We rely on WP:SECONDARY sources to do that. Your edit is akin to saying 'It is also worth noting that when Trudeau took power in 1968 the Toronto Maple Leafs were the Stanley Cup champions. After that Toronto never won again and Montreal won 6 Cups.' Dbrodbeck (talk) 20:55, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Dbrodbeck. Collecting data from WP:PRIMARYSOURCES and presenting it with your own comments and interpretation is synthesis and original research. Dr. K. 21:00, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

• I see the point trying to be made here. So yes we have sources...What should be asked here is a publication like Bob Plamondon. The Truth about Trudeau. eBookIt.com. ISBN 978-1-4566-1671-7. a good source.....i will differ to @Rjensen: on the sources.--Moxy (talk) 21:07, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
• It would certainly be possible to write neutral and properly sourced content about Trudeau's economic policies — they have been a subject of analysis by credible and trustworthy economists. However, it's not our place to publish opinion commentary or original research, which is what the text that we're actually looking at is: it's sourced simply to tables of economic statistics, infers an analysis of those statistics not explicitly stated in the sources themselves, and completely elides any possibility of there having been any alternative explanation to "Trudeau = disastrous" for the statistics in question. The period in question, for starters, was one in which the entire world was in an economic crisis not altogether dissimilar from what we're seeing now — the United States also suffered record inflation and high unemployment in the same period despite having been governed mostly by Republican presidents during that time, so it's far from clear that any economic policy Trudeau could possibly have pursued would have singlehandedly prevented Canada from being affected by the worldwide situation. Any analysis of his economic policy in fact needs to be much more nuanced than what the OP is putting forward: no, it wasn't all good by any stretch of the imagination, but it wasn't all monolithically bad either. There is, in fact, a very real case to be made that things would have been even worse had he pursued a much different economic policy than he did — excessive austerity in a time of crisis runs a very real risk of feeding on itself and turning you into Greece — so we need to present both sides of the story, not just one ideologically-slanted version of it. Bearcat (talk) 21:48, 23 January 2016 (UTC)
  • I would also suggest that we should not use loaded terms like ruthless.--174.91.184.47 (talk) 05:08, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

One basic problem is the highly politicized assumption that "Trudeau did far more damage" -- businesses raise prices and he gets the blame? Business lays off workers and he gets the blame? that's low-grade POV and shows an attitude we don't tolerate: using Wikipedia to score attacks on "ruthless" politicians we don't like. Rjensen (talk) 16:54, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

References

While some of your arguments make one wonder how neutral you guys really are on this topic, I do agree that my revised statement was mainly based on "primary sources" instead of "secondary sources" and Wikipedia does have a point in favoring the latter. No worries, I will put this Trudeau thing aside for the time being.

New book

New book: Trudeaumania by Paul Litt, 2016, University of British Columbia Press. Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 16:05, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Quebec Deputy Premier Pierre Laporte

In the section on the October Crisis Pierre Laporte was refer to as Quebec Labour Minister. He was also the Deputy Premier of Quebec and should be refer to as such.218.214.52.68 (talk) 03:01, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

<PET

For those of you who know no French, I would like to point out that Pierre Trudeau's initials, which were sometimes used in the press, are almost certainly meant as an insult, especially in the French-language press, spelling as they do the French word for "fart". Take a look. Perhaps this should be noted in the article. Kelisi (talk) 21:34, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Name of the page

I am not sure why "Elliott" was removed from the page title. I saw in the history it was removed, then added again then removed, etc. His first name is not "Pierre" it is "Pierre Elliott". There is no "middle name" in French Quebecer catholic names. "Joseph" is standard for any man. "Philippe" is his godfather. "Pierre Yves Elliot" are all first names. It is common to have more first names in case you want to change your first name. We should be consistent with the French page that is correct. We probably should not even put his full christian name. It is probably not on his birth certificate or passeport. It's probably only on his baptism certificate and he probably nerver used his christian name in his life. [Unsigned comment added by Masau11 (talk | contribs), on May 2, 2021.]

The author of previous comment didn't add a signature, but I agree with his concerns. During his lifetime, Trudeau usually was known as Pierre Elliott Trudeau on formal occasions, and both Pierre and Trudeau are common names in Quebec, so some disambiguation seems useful. I don't know what motivated the change to the title, but I suggest it be reconsidered.

107.190.18.162 (talk) 00:56, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

The choice of name for an article is based on the WP:Commonname principles, notably:

Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above.[5]

So arguments based on naming customs in the subject's culture don't decide the issue; the question is what the subject was normally known by in English-language sources. "Pierre Trudeau" seems pretty unambiguous to me, and meets the five criteria set out in Wikipedia:Article titles. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 01:49, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Minister of Justice and Attorney General and leadership candidate

I had changed the heading title of "Minister of Justice and leadership candidate" to "Attorney General and leadership candidate".

However this got reverted by Mr Serjeant Buzfuz with this reason:‎ ""Minister of Justice" is the main title for the position. The Minister of Justice is ex officio the Attorney General. Should use main title in the sub-heading."

As a compromise I then changed it to "Minister of Justice and Attorney General and leadership candidate".

While I do not dispute the Justice Minister is ex officio the Attorney General, not every reader in particular non-Canadians may know that.

Not to mention Attorney General sounds more prestigious than Justice Minister.

After all the Canadian Attorney General is in proximity to the US Attorney General. 49.3.72.79 (talk) 06:05, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Bolding

User:Mr Serjeant Buzfuz I see you reverted my edit on Pierre Trudeau, where I bolded "PET." Meanwhile, articles such as Franklin D. Roosevelt have their initials bolded. Why? Ak-eater06 (talk) 19:22, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

As stated in the edit revert, the MOS for bolding says that it is not to be used for emphasis in an article. The actual title of an article is generally bolded, but not subsequent words in the text. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting :When not to use boldface:

"Avoid using boldface for emphasis in article text."

"Avoid using boldface for introducing new terms."

Similarly, the MOS for acronyms says to avoid using special styles for them. See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Abbreviations: "Do not apply special style, such as SMALL CAPS, to acronyms."

Both of these MOS guidelines apply here, in my opinion. "PET" is an initialism and should not be given any special emphasis, and bolding should not be used.

As for why it is used in other articles, I don't know. But as between the MOS, which is a guideline for all Wikipedia articles, and a particular article that does not follow the MOS, I would suggest we should follow the MOS. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 19:43, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Disputed edits

Well, then, I guess the most productive thing would be to start with the things you personally dislike, Ak-eater06. I know next to nothing about Canadian politics and came here because I coincidentally saw a talk page note; to my very uninvolved (and not specifically informed) eyes, there is nothing wildly objectionable in the edits that were reverted, certainly not to a degree that an outsider to the topic area should be expected to get it without further elaboration. So please, elaborate. AngryHarpy‍^talk 07:45, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

User:AngryHarpy everyone should follow WP:BRD. The edits were in good faith, but they weren't constructive (with the exception of the citation edits). I will try to reinstate his edits on the references/citations tomorrow. Also please specify how you found the "talk page note". Ak-eater06 (talk) 08:01, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I found it by virtue of having my very own watchlist, but it doesn't really matter. I was only confused by the invocation of BRD, as I don't really get the "bold" part in basic c/e and ref maintenance (and corrections such as World War 1 -> World War I and McClelland and Stewart -> McClelland & Stewart are things you very much ought to feel silly for reverting outright). Anyway, I don't really have the leisure or expertise to look at this in any more detail right now, so do carry on. AngryHarpy‍^talk 13:32, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Death

It appears that the Death section is experiencing content creep with information irrelevant to the topic of Pierre Trudeau's death. I propose that the following content be removed. Not only is it irrelevant, but it is redundant due to its coverage earlier in the article. "Eventually, Justin did enter politics, was elected to the House of Commons in late 2008, became the leader of the federal Liberal Party in April 2013, and led the Liberals to victory on October 19, 2015. Justin Trudeau was appointed prime minister on November 4, 2015,[164] the first time a father and son had both held the position in Canada." WP:CREEPSWritethisway (talk) 04:16, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree. Instant Comma (talk) 21:28, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Canoeing

I think we should have more info on his recreational activities. He presented himself as an outdoorsman.... a hearty "True Canadian" to be trusted if you will. So much so that there's a documentary and a few books written about just his outdoor activities. His son and current prime minister actually followed in his footsteps .... in my view as a media hype thing but..... canoeing the same route. The family is famous for their outdoor activities.....so much so that one of his sons died doing an outdoor activitie.

• Couture, C.; Bosley, V.E. (1998). Paddling With the Current: Pierre Elliot Trudeau, Étienne Parent, Liberalism, and Nationalism in Canada. University of Alberta Press. ISBN 978-0-88864-313-1. Retrieved 2023-04-11.

• "Trudeau's route". The Globe and Mail. 2003-11-26. Retrieved 2023-04-11.

Moxy- 23:10, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Political party in infobox

Instead of reading "Liberal (1965–2000)" Trudeau's party affiliation should read "Liberal (from 1965)". This is in line with articles for numerous other politicians, and provides more clarity to the reader. The current text can imply Trudeau left the party in 2000, when he actually just died.

Considering how much of a small, common-sense change this is, I really did not think it would require discussion to be implemented, but I guess some editors disagree. Loytra (talk) 03:24, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Post-nominal CC, CH

Vincent Massey has his as CH, CC. Is there a reason for the difference? 99.228.43.228 (talk) 17:41, 9 October 2023 (UTC)