Talk:River Torrens

Removed unverified statement

I have removed

During the 19th century cargo ships were able to convey their loads up the river to the city from Port Adelaide, but this eventually gave way to rail and road transport. Nowadays the river is used only by tourist boats and rowing crew and known more for the green parklands along its banks.

as I can't find any other reference to support the claim. --ScottDavis 14:31, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I have been reading up on Adelaide's history (now taking temporary break) and I hadn't come across anything mentioning the Torrens' navigability. The second claim is basic knowledge, though.--Cyberjunkie 14:33, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The second sentence looked odd sitting out on its own, and needed rewording to remove "nowadays" and "only". The next paragraph says most of what's left better. You can put that bit back if you like. I think the first bit's wrong because the Torrens doesn't come out at the Port anyway. I have heard of a plan (don't know how well developed) to put a channel up the middle of Port Road for the purpose. I'd want to find a reference before writing that in Wikipedia, too. --ScottDavis 01:19, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Thankyou, the Torrens was never navigable to the gulf. A famous quote (the source is at the Port Adelaide Library, but I can't remember the reference) states that is was more expensive to move goods from a ship at berth at Port Misery to Adelaide, than it was to move goods from London to Port Misery.

It's quite well known that they originally planned to build a canal along the middle of Port Road from Port Adelaide to the city, that's why the median strip on Port Road is so wide. I don't know off the top of my head of any references to this. GK1 11:19, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Uni Footbridge

The University Footbridge was donated by Lily and Eva Waite (of Waite Institute family fame). A plaque to that effect exists on at least the University end of the bridge. As an interesting anecdote the bridge was blown up as a prosh stunt around 1996 (memory fails me as to the right year). At that time it was rumoured to have been a chlorine and oil bomb. As a result a fist size hole was made in the concrete walking deck. Windows in the student union, sciences and CSIRO were blown in. The bang was heard in the Uni bar despite the loud noise comig from the music being played there. Walking over the bridge some minutes later the strength of the bomb was apparent. Yes I was there.. no I didn't do it, I was only a lowly Arts student with no bomb making ambititions. Ozdaren 10:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I notice the bridge is purported to join the University and Peace Park. Is that correct? It was built to connect the University and the University Oval. It links Victoria and War Memorial Drives. Ozdaren 12:46, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The Adelaide City Council has the bridge listed as being buit in 1936 http://www.adelaidecitycouncil.com/council/publications/Agendas/PLC/2006/2006_04_19PLC_Item_5.1_-_Attachment_C_-_Part_1.pdf Ozdaren 13:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Railway Bridges

Other bridges to cross the Torrens include the SA Railways bridges. The first bridge was built in 1856 "It was constructed of timber with 100 foot clear way and consisted of trussed girders, braced diagonally, springing from stone abutment based on concrete foundation protected by sheet piling". Thompson, Malcom & Sampson, Bob (2006) . Bridges over the River Torrens. 150 years of the Port Adelaide Railway 1856 to 2006. pp. 24-26. Ozdaren 10:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Popeye

The boats currently used by the Popeye service are not the originals. The current fleet stems from the 1980's and replaced much older boats. Keith Altmann has operated the Popeye service for the last 40 years. The comment "the Popeye is viewed affectionately by Adelaideans, even if quite aged." is not accurate. Ozdaren 13:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

River Torrens Outlet

I think it would be good if this article mentioned about the construction of the River Torrens Outlet (it's artificial) and the original outlet through the swamp that is now West Lakes into the Port River. I can't really write about it, because I don't know of any references to it. A bit of research at a library or some old maps might be in order. GK1 11:16, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, sounds like a good idea. Go for it! Shiftaling 13:02, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Murder Plaque

"The river was the site of a notorious murder?" Why does this need to be included? I'm sure the river has been the site of many murders.--ABVS 10:52, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

But only this one still makes news today....one of the most often mentioned murders in South Australia and the only one I know that has a plaque marking the spotPeripitus (Talk) 11:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

When was the last time it was in the news? And still, that just proves notoriety, not relevance to the river encyclopaedia entry. There are also many plaques along the river commemorating many things. I'm not trying to have a go, just trying to improve the entry. I'm not that familiar with the murder; was it a precipitator for the decriminalisation of homosexuality or something?--ABVS 04:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

It was a significant event in South Australian criminal, legal and political history. I'm a bit surprised I can't find an article about it. Most recent online news references I can find quickly are 2002. [1] [2] --Scott Davis ^Talk 14:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Only articles I can find (post 2002) through EBSCOhost are from the Advertiser (March 2006 and May 2005), ABC News (May 2005 ). Lots of mentions in 2002 as that was when something called "The Duncan Report" was released. Peripitus (Talk) 20:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

GA review

I have reviewed this article against the GA criteria, and this is what I've found:

• Well written: has multiple grammar, spelling, and punctuation errors (in particular, possessives lacking apostrophes). Some awkwardly worded sentences. Needs a good thorough copyedit. There is also some technical jargon (e.g. I had to look up catchment, though that may just be because I'm from the U.S. and watershed is the more common term here; escarpment was also unfamiliar to me) that might need to be reined in. Tone could use work as well, in sentences like "...have been particularly heavily modified and would be unrecognisable to an early settler."

- fixed now (as far as I can find...hopefully fixed all of the errors) - Peripitus (Talk) 08:13, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

• Factually accurate and verifiable: meets criteria
• Broad in its coverage: meets criteria, though balance between sections might need to be examined
• NPOV: contains phrases such as prosaically named, a notorious murder.

- fixed now - Peripitus (Talk) 06:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

• Stable: meets criteria
• Images: meets criteria

Unfortunately, in my opinion, the article needs some more work to pass GA. Don't give up, however; the article is close, but not quite there yet. —Scott5114↗ 07:18, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Kaurna Dual-Name

Just edited the "naming" section. I was not aware of a dual-name such as there is for Victoria Square/Tarndarnyangga. Can anyone confirm or deny? --Yeti Hunter 04:07, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

GA On Hold

This is a comprehensive and well-sourced article, but there are numerous small issues to address. The single biggest one is capitalisations. Please look carefully at the street and geographical feature names. The species names are also a problem. Sadly Wikipedia is bereft of clarity on this subject, but the usage here is inconsistent. I suggest using full capitalisation of specific species e.g. Redfin Perch, Australian Swamp Rat and none for aspecific references e.g. tortoise. Use the same system for flora as fauna. 'Rattus norvegicus' is correct for latin names i.e. italicised and leading capital only.

Lead: - the last sentence implies the sewer may possibly be a tourist attraction, but I don't think you mean that.

Geology: 'the para fault' - what is this? Should it be capitalised?

Discovery: 'by a party of Lieutenant W.G. Field'. Do you mean a party including these two, or simply that the discovery was by them?

Torrens Lake: Don't be fooled by WP:MOS. This is a proper name and should be capitalised in the header.

'funded by Sir Thomas Elder Smith, with the park named after him.' Slightly clumsy - 'funded by Sir Thomas Elder Smith, the park being named after him.'?

Water use: 'was unmetered first six years' missing words.

Bridges: 'Later King Edwards VII' lower case L and no plural needed.

'The bridge is made from three English built parallel wrought iron,' I know what you mean, but it reads oddly. A hyphen between English and built might fix it.

'a 26,000 pound grant' - that's a heavy grant. Suggest using a £ sign.

Railway Bridge. The order of metric and imperial measures is not consistent with earlier usage.

Today's river: Kangaroo Creek may have a duplicate red link

'adjacent to the Adelaide Festival Centre Elder Park' needs a comma

Images: No need for periods in short descriptions.

Refs: As a courtesy to users with weak internet connections please indicate if a file is a pdf by placing '(pdf)' after the title. Ben MacDui (Talk) 13:42, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments - should get this list fixed within 24hrs - Peripitus (Talk) 05:23, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Think I fixed all that without introducing more errors. Found a few other things as well. Hopefully the prose is up to scratch now - Peripitus (Talk) 09:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Further specific items

Getting there, but there are a few issues still to be addressed.

• 'Introduced species including olives, bamboo, boxthorn, watsonia and blackberries have displaced native flora.'

In order to be consistent 'Olive' has to be capitalised as it is a singular species. The sentence could be 'Introduced varieties including Olive, and various species of bamboo, boxthorn, watsonia and blackberry have displaced native flora.'

Yes and no. I've capitalised Olive but the source is not clear if it's various species or one species of the aftermentioned. As they have not specified I can't ( I think it's various of the first two and specific of the second two though )

• ' This name, alternatively karra-weera, only referred to the lake section of the river, between Adelaide and North Adelaide.'

For consistency capitalise 'karra-weera'.

fixed

• 'Yertala has been translated as "water running by the side of a river" and has survived as Yatala in the naming of various places in Adelaide.'

MOS would like 'Yertala' italicised. - See WP:MOS 'Words as words'.

Fixed

• 'King William street to North Adelaide.' Missing cap 'S'.

Fixed

• "prescotts crossing" - It's not completely clear but perhaps this should be capitalised?

Fixed and was missing an apostrophe

• 'great depression' Caps pls.

Fixed

• ' The bridge was constructed 1.5 km from Adelaide Railway Station[52]' Missing period.

Fixed

• Flora and Fauna -

Exotic pest species such as the European Carp, trout and Redfin Perch have greatly reduced

It looks odd. If you don't know the trout species, or there are several then put 'trout ' at the end or possibly: 'Exotic pests such as the European Carp, Redfin Perch, and various species of trout have greatly reduced'

Fixed(ish) - per your note I've moved trout to the end. Unfortunately the source is not clear whether the species is singular or plural so I can't add various.

native fish populations like the big headed gudgeon

Sounds like a species

Fixed and added the species name as there is no article on it

but waterfowl are common along the river with Pacific Black Ducks, Australian Wood Ducks, Black Swans, ibis, egrets and herons amongst the more than 100 species seen.

again, if you don't know the specifics perhaps insert ' and various' before 'ibis'. Why 'but waterfowl'? Is the implication that native waterfowl are still in the ascendant? 'but native waterfowl'?

Fixed - added native. Again the source is the issue with ibis - I need a source that specifies the species (which the noted one does for the other birds)

Widely found .... upper river are bulrush, knobby club rush, spike rush, common reed, sea rush and pale rush.

Species?

No idea - the book by Warburton J.W. was not specific and names like "spike rush" are generic covering a number of species.

• 'an exploration party comprising:' doesn't need a colon

Fixed

• ' 370 m³/s(cubic metres per second) (13,000 ft³/s),' missing space after '/s'

Fixed

• 'which supplies an average 60% of Adelaide's water needs'

This makes it sound as if the quality rather than quantity is being considered. 'that supplies 60% of Adelaide's water needs in an average year'?

Fixed - I never read it this way but you're correct. Could easily have been read as supplies a poor quality 60%

• 'playgrounds walkways and bicycle tracks; representing the earliest linear'

Semi-colon doesn't work here and I'm not sure about 'representing'. 'tracks. This was'?

Fixed ... I think... reordered and split into two.

Ben MacDui (Talk) 12:56, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comprehensive commentary. I think I've fixed all you've noticed as well as a couple of others. - Peripitus (Talk) 13:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Passed. I forgot to mention Wikipedia:Naming conventions (fauna), so I fixed it myself. Well done - the article is well on its way to FA status. A Peer Review and/or a thorough copyedit would be useful next steps if you are so inclined. Ben MacDui (Talk) 17:53, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

More comments

Congrats on a very nice (and "good") article. I have a few suggestions: I would clarify in the first sentence that this is in Australia (not everyone knows where Adelaide is) and perhaps add South Australia too. I would also add the length and drainage basin area to the lead paragraphs (perhaps "It flows 85 km (53 mi) from its source in the Adelaide Hills near Mount Pleasant..." and "The river and its tributaries are highly variable in flow, and drain an area of 508 km²." I would also try to be more consistent about showing both metric and English units. You might also look at the relatively new {{Geobox}} river - for examples of this in use, see Larrys Creek or Plunketts Creek (Loyalsock Creek). Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 02:11, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Thank you and thanks for the useful comments. I've clarified the opening but left out Australia as I think it's implicit in South Australia + taken on the other recommendations. For the units... this is an issue that needs to be looked at. As for Geobox... what a monster template ! When I have time I'll have a look at this one. Thanks again - Peripitus (Talk) 09:11, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Ten years later, I've added all the {{convert}} templates. I've also flipped the order so that where imperial measurements were quoted, they were replaced with metric measurements first, followed by imperial measurements in brackets. How the article got through GA nomination with those omissions I don't know. The focus of energy should now be on river crossings that had a very Adelaide=centric approach to them, as opposed to considering the whole river from source to mouth. Images are required, names of bridges are required, description of the crossings are required, etc. If anything, it's a C-class article; not yet deserving of a Good Article nomination. Rangasyd (talk) 09:42, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

2009 Torrens Lake Drainage information removal

Peripitus finds it appropriate to remove the short paragraph regarding the 2009 drainage of the lake, on the sole basis that "it was in the news but the lake drained for 20 days is not a big deal in 173 years since the colony founded." However, if the occurence was worthy of media commentary, wouldn't you believe it to be highly relevant to the historical documentation of the lake, and therefore require inclusion in the article?

In addition, I will point out that, although the situation was short in duration, it was an historical event due to its rarity. Furthermore, the circumstances of the lake allowed the media and general public to draw similarities between the situation and the current predicament that the Murray River is currently enduring. The circumstance of the river created considerable interest. Therefore, I find a strong basis for which this information should be included, and have subsequently re-inserted the information in the article.

Peripitus finds that the information is trivial, considering the overwhelming bulk of information currently in the article. If you take into account the probable 2 million or so years of the creation of the river in conjunction with the geological construction of the Adelaide hills, I would find the last 173 years of colonisation of the region in relation to the river "trivial".

I wish not to create an edit war, but I would like to remind users to discuss their contributions (or deletions) on this talk page before removing important historical information and forgetting about it. I find Peripitus' contributions to this article valuable, however, this deletion is in my opinion, highly inappropriate.

N.B. To put a thought into your head, if the circumstance was to occur again, there would be no documented evidence of previous situations. It would be then fair to assume it never happened before. Deleting relevant history is dangerous! Frahnie (talk) 11:32, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I made this removal (which I won't edit war over) as one of the editor's whose extensively researched this subject; research that has given me a view of this incident in context. The torrens has frequently flooded, overrun the bridges and the weir and resulted in deaths and destruction. All of these incidents have created a lot of news articles. Covering this simple drainage accident to such an extent reads as over-the-top recentism. If you want it in then, then I have no inclination to fight it. I do ask you to remember though that if you read news reports of, say, the last 25 years...you would see dozens of Torrens incidents that attracted this level of news (uni pranks, drownings, algal blooms etc.) and covering even a few of these in this depth would make the article look rather odd - Peripitus (Talk) 11:53, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Completely agree with Peripitus on this one. The Torrens has been drained numerous times even in recent history (off the top of my head the last time was around a decade ago), and in days gone by the river would regularly run dry during the summer. The event is certainly not "unique" - it belongs in Wikinews, not Wikipedia. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 12:28, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

I must admit that your arguements are very compelling. Maybe it would be prudent to create a subsection (maybe in river history) including the information (briefly) of drainage over the years. Obviously, if I didn't know that previous circumstances occurred, then it would be useful for a person like me to be presented with such information, don't you think? I am looking to create a well rounded, broad, wealth of knowledge on the topic, and I believe that if not for this latest situation, then certainly information included on the overal patterns of drainage. Frahnie (talk) 09:38, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I was going to suggest that it be included in the historical section, but it might need a bit of a rewrite to make it fit in. I don't think a "historical drainages" section would be appropriate, but to mention that it has drained in the past, due to drought, intentional maintenance or accidental malfunction would be useful. Perhaps the floods, regular algal blooms, rubbish and introduced fish problems could be included there as well. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 12:29, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Kaurna / Ramindjeri boundary

• From Adelaide City Council Records of Boyle Finniss witnessing a territorial defence apparently by Ramindjeri thus casting doubts over "Kaurna" ever existing other than a C19th Missionary misinterpretation of Ramindjeri Elder "Encounter Bay Bob":

"At this time I was a witness of a fight on the banks of the Torrens in front of Morphett Street. Seeing a number of blacks assembling at that point, I repaired to the spot and was met by my old friend Peter, of Rapid Bay, and his tribe. The tribe was in their war paint, each man carrying shield and spear. Peter endeavoured to explain to me that they came to prevent the northern blacks entering their territory, which seems to have been bounded by the River Torrens. However, Captain Jack, of northern celebrity, had already, with the northern tribes, crossed the river and were engaged in various tactical movements which threatened war. There must have been at least a hundred blacks preparing for the fight. I saw Captain Jack, spear in hand, capering up and down the river flat in front of his myrmidons, talking very loudly and gesticulating violently. Captain Peter retorted in language which I did not comprehend. At last Captain Jack shook his spear, not at any one, but at a pretended foe, and after a few exclamations threw his spear into the ground, apparently in a great rage. This seemed the signal for combat. Captain Peter warned me to retire as the enemy were about to throw their spears. A few spears came. I stood out of the way of the combatants and watched the result. My friend Peter was captain of the southern hosts, evidently the chosen warrior of his tribe.

Rushed to the front and threw himself on one knee, covering himself with his shield in the left hand and balancing his spear at arm's length in the right hand, His warriors followed his example and ranged themselves on his right and left, receding so as to form a wedge, of which Peter was the front and apex. It recalled to mind my school-boy recollections of the Grecian phalanx, described in Polybius, and the Greek wedge formation. A shower of spears came from Captain Jack's party and the wedge grew restive. I could not see if any fell in this short contest, but I presume the northern tribes yielded to their fear of the southern prowess and began to disperse, while Peter rose up with his warriors and again entered into conversation with me, the result being that he was the victor. The northern blacks were tall, lanky figures, very lean and covered with white scales of a scorbutic appearance. I cannot say that they carried shields or that they fought like practised warriors. They were but a mob, while Peter's army were powerful, well-fed blacks, armed with shield and spear, and apparently well trained to use them."Mifren (talk) 09:12, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Mifren, what does this 19th century quotation have to do with the river itself and the article upon it ? Peripitus (Talk) 01:07, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

(NOTE: I have renamed this section to reflect its content) - As I understand it, the Ramindjeri now claim a part of the Fleurieu Peninsula extending as far north of the River Torrens, and this diary quotation is being used to support that claim. If this can be verified, I would suggest it be included in the Ramindjeri page (or actually the Ngarrindjeri page, since Ramindjeri currently redirects to there). If the Ramindjeri claim is subsequently successful, then perhaps there could be a breif mention about the river being a boundary between tribes at the time of European settlement. However as it stands, this quotation from an old diary is original research.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 04:03, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

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Historic photos

Torrens Flood Water Scheme Showing Horses Pulling V skip waggons

A set of 91 historic photos is now available on Commons:Category:Torrens Flood Water Scheme. --NearEMPTiness (talk) 09:56, 11 March 2020 (UTC)