Talk:Chicken Kiev

Origin?

I'm finding sources which claim French, Ukrainian, and Russian origins of the dish. My best source so far (added) simply says it's disputed. Ifnord (talk) 19:05, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

There is currently no reliable secondary source on the history of this dish. This article contains the most extensive collection of primary sources. The source which you added (from The Telegraph) is yet another collection of unfounded rumours found across the Web. In fact, it is partially based on this article. From the primary sources (historical cookbooks etc.) we can conclude that the dish originated in the beginning of the 20th century in Russian Empire which included both Russia and Ukraine at that time. So I revert the information in the infobox back to "Russian Empire" which is more informative than just "disputed". --Off-shell (talk) 21:26, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

It's a French dish. Neither Russia nor Ukraine had anything to do with the dish as first served. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.73.163.113 (talk) 15:53, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Colonial Fowl Club

https://twitter.com/SlavaMalamud/status/1184491369139785733 Chicken Kiev joins Peking Duck in the extremely small and very exclusive Colonial Fowl Club. (Slava Malamud, Oct 16, 2019)--73.75.115.5 (talk) 09:47, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Chicken Kyiv????

As was mentioned on the Kyiv talk page, Chicken Kiev and some historical (mostly Russian) articles would need to be discussed before moving them to Kyiv. I think it very unlikely that the common name has changed from Chicken Kiev. Way too many cookbooks and recipes. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:27, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Obviously we would need evidence that the chicken is now better known by the name Kyiv before changing the title. I should note despite the cities of Beijing and Livorno being titled as they are we did not not change the titles of Peking duck or Leghorn chicken.--76.67.170.18 (talk) 22:02, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

(re my edits, which I did before I noticed this discussion here): I notice someone has added a number of citations to the Wiktionary article on Chicken Kiev for "Kyiv". They seem to have been added by someone who wants to use the term "Chicken Kyiv" for some reason, as that form is disproportionately included in the citations, contrary to popular usage. (It also makes reference to the "Chicken Kyiv" speech by George H.W. Bush, which is likely spelt like Kyiv because of a play on words and not suggesting the foodstuff should be called "Chicken Kyiv"; incidentally, the speech's Wikipedia page is Chicken Kiev speech, not 'Kyiv'). It does seem that a number of people are using the term, but "Chicken Kiev" is by far the most commonplace term, and corresponds to how English usually refers to foodstuffs. There are also some archaic forms like "Chicken Kieff" listed in the Wiktionary reference page; if we add 'Kyiv', then what stops us adding those? This all seems very bizarre. --Bangalamania (talk) 22:36, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

Chicken Kyiv (not kiev)

As there is no such word as 'Kiev' to refer to the Ukrainian capital city, calling Ukrainian dish as 'chicken kiev' is egregious mistake. I urge editors and moderators be more reasonable and not to sabotage other people's edits that correct this obvious omission. It's 2021 now, i beg y'all, wake up.

Please see WP:COMMONNAME. If menus and recipe books in the English-speaking world pick up on this and start spelling the dish's name that way, then fine. I understand the government's desire to de-Russify the city's name, but the notion that the name of the food must change has been strongly rejected on Wikipedia as disruptive. It's food, it's not a city. See the discussion immediately above, there are plenty of anachronistic food names, especially where Italy, for instance, is concerned - most major cities in Italy have English names that are different from Italian usage. Acroterion (talk) 15:16, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

And never try to slip an edit past using a deceptive edit summary like "Missing file fixed". Acroterion (talk) 15:18, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

That is not slipping, after previous changes one filename was corrupted. --Dmytro Herhel (talk) 18:29, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

You did a lot more than change one filename. Acroterion (talk) 18:40, 14 April 2021 (UTC)

Sure, because you reverted changes while my filename editing. Arguing makes no sence :). --Dmytro Herhel (talk) 20:24, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

For future reference, Google Ngram shows that "Chicken Kiev" is used to refer to the dish, while "Chicken Kyiv" is hardly ever used. Mellk (talk) 20:56, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

The common name of the dish continues to be Chicken Kiev, just as we continue to use Madras Curry Powder (rather than Chennai Curry Powder). Woke revisionism has not reached the culinary world yet. WWGB (talk) 06:58, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I beg to differ. Kiev is the English word for the city and the food. Just because one supermarket changes to use the Ukrainian name, does that make it "sometimes known as..."? This page is supposed to be in English and should stick with English spellings. Check the OED if you doubt it. "Kiev [ˈkiːɛv, ˈkiːɛf] DEFINITION the capital of Ukraine, an industrial city and port on the River Dnieper; population 2,765,500 (est. 2009). Founded in the 8th century, it became capital of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1934. In 1991 it became capital of independent Ukraine. Ukrainian name Kyiv." — Preceding unsigned comment added by IADavidson (talk • contribs) 07:56, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

This is the most important piece. The Russians don't use the English Alphabet, they never spelled it "Kiev". They spelled it Київ. Stop with this anti-western revisionist history garbage. 98.219.224.139 (talk) 06:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

This is not entirely true. Sure, OED only lists "Kiev", but Webster lists both versions as equally valid, U.S. Board on Geographic Names, and a lot of media outlets have switched to "Kyiv" (NY Times, WSJ, Wasthington Post, The Telegraph, and the BBC). So Kyiv is already widely used and its usage seems to be growing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DanielCarrera (talk • contribs) 07:52, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the name of a food or drink item does not tend to be as changeable as the name of the place it is named after (in the English language anyway). Other examples include Ceylon tea (despite the country changing its name to Sri Lanka in 1972) and Bombay mix (despite the city being renamed Mumbai in 1995). As for chicken Kiev, the dish is still commonly known as such in both the United States and the United Kingdom despite Kyiv being the preferred name for the city nowadays. I would also like to remind readers that this is the English language version of Wikipedia and according to WP:COMMONNAME Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources). Therefore, the common name for the dish is chicken Kiev. It has been said that the name chicken Kiev could be seen as offensive but it is worth remembering that Wikipedia is not censored (see WP:NOTCENSORED) e.g. articles about swear words use the actual words in their titles although some readers might find them offensive. An example of another food item with a potentially offensive name is the British confection midget gems despite the use of the word midget as an ableist slur against those with dwarfism. Although at least three brands have renamed their product "Mini Gems", the confection remains more commonly known as "midget gems" in its native dialect. Tk420 (talk) 22:43, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 February 2022

Change All references of Kiev to Kyiv. Kiev is Russian terminology not Ukrainian where the name originated.

Make the changes out of respect for the Ukraine and it's culture. This dish did not originate in the Russian empire. It Originated in the Ukrainian city of Kyiv. 212.129.83.139 (talk) 21:01, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:06, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Russians don't spell the city name using English letters. You're full of it. The Russian name is Київ. 98.219.224.139 (talk) 06:56, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Russian doesn't have letter "ї", what are you even talking about? Russians use word "Киев" (Kiev) when referring to the capital of Ukraine. Ukrainians, on the other hand, use word "Київ" (Kyiv) 159.148.8.38 (talk) 11:30, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

As per WP:BOLD I've changed all non-quotation spelling to Kyiv. Leaving the spelling as Kiev supports Russian imperialism and colonialism. Reverting the change supports Russian imperialism and colonialism. sendai (talk) 06:31, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Please follow Wikipedia policy instead of WP:RGW. Mellk (talk) 19:10, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Chicken Kyiv please

Kyiv is a Ukrainian city. Why do you insist on using the Russian spelling? Why did you lock the page from edits?

Let us correct the monstrous error now! It is Chicken Kyiv! Walfin (talk) 14:38, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done Per sources and consensus the dish is called Chicken Kiev. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:09, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Russian spelling is Київ. Kiev is the English spelling and has been for centuries. 98.219.224.139 (talk) 06:57, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

The Russian spelling is Ки́ев, there is no ї in the Russian Cyrillic alphabet. 23.123.132.37 (talk) 13:01, 13 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2022

please change Chicken Kiev to Chicken Kyev Glasgowdick (talk) 06:48, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: See above and WP:COMMONNAME Cannolis (talk) 06:51, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

AKA Chicken Kyiv

It would seem sensible to me to have the alternative spelling of Kyiv on the alternate names section. Especially as some of the big supermarkets have decided to change the spelling.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60621332 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.40.9.163 (talk) 15:15, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Many supermarkets are changing the packaging to Kyiv. I think atleast the article should atleast be updated again to show that under cultural references section. Mrmooshoo (talk) 22:18, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Does it make sense, or is this Freedom Fries virtue signaling all over again? The Russians don't use the English Alphabet to spell their city names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.219.224.139 (talk) 06:59, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

Virtue signalling is exactly what it is. Bombay Duck hasn't transformed itself into Mumbai Duck; in general, recipes named after countries and cities don't change their name when the place changes name. I think it's pretty WP:POV to suddenly alter the spelling of "Keev" (how the UK TV presenters are suddenly pronouncing it!) from the Russian version to the Ukrainian version, 2 weeks into a ground-war between Russia and Ukraine.

This is not the right time.

(And of course, as others have mentioned, both spellings of the name of the city are transliterations into Latin script from some Cyrillic alphabet or other)

MrDemeanour (talk) 22:30, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 28 February 2022

It seems that the consensus is to use "Kiev" when referring to the dish and "Kyiv" when referring to the city. In that case, the photo caption beginning "Continental hotel in Kiev [...]" is inconsistent with this style and ought to be "Kyiv". (I'm not sure about "Kiev-style"/"Kyiv-style".) Also, this is bound to confuse, so it would be good to include something at the beginning of the article, along the lines of "Chicken Kievs are named after the city of Kyiv, which is also romanised as Kiev." EggFaultCoreDumped (talk) 01:33, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Also, WP:KYIV says: "For unambiguously historical topics (e.g. Kiev Offensive), do not change existing content". Photo of Continental hotel was made between 1890 and 1905, not after 1991. Arado Ar 196 (talk) 06:18, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

That doesn't really make sense, considering that the very same hotel is described inline as "the Continental hotel in Kyiv" and "A luxury hotel built in 1897 in the center of Kyiv". Just being old doesn't make it "unambiguously historical"; were the hotel named "The Continental Hotel of Kiev" then it would make sense to honour that name, but in this case we are describing the hotel in our own, modern words. Moreover, I don't think there was anything ambiguous about my request. EggFaultCoreDumped (talk) 19:32, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

(Arado) said: "it's not clear what changes you want to be made." One request in the above is reasonable and clear: allow an edit to the opening statement to mention that the name "Chicken Kiev" is based on the Russified version of the name of the Ukrainian capital city, Kyiv. That sets context for the use of "Kiev" in the rest of the article as the *name* of the dish, rather than than a place of origin whose spelling is disputed. (And the restaurant's location should reasonably made with the same spelling everywhere on En Wikipedia, whether or not it matches the name of the dish.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mental Nomad (talk • contribs) 17:42, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Chicken Kyiv: Wikipedia should respect an official national policy

This article by a lecturer in Applied Linguistics considers the Kiev/Kyiv question in a useful and illuminating manner, making plain that "Kyiv became the official English language name for the capital in 1995 and the Ukrainian government has been running a KyivNotKiev campaign which has its own Wikipedia article since 2018." The article by the lecturer should be helpful to Wikipedia contributors deciding how to put the WP:COMMONNAME in perspective.

A Guardian newspaper story explains how a national supermarket chain has decided to respect the Ukrainian choice of the spelling of their capital city ("UK’s second biggest supermarket switches Soviet-era spelling of capital city to preferred Ukrainian version") by selling chicken kyiv instead of chicken kiev.

The WP:TITLE policy used for naming Wikipedia articles is described as a "standard that all editors should normally follow. Changes made to it should reflect consensus" (my emphases highlight the fact that the policy contains the possibility of adopting a different approach if consensus decides so).

The decision by Ukrainians about the official name of their capital city ought to be an instance where the encyclopaedia should subordinate its own conventions to respect an overriding official national policy. O'Dea (talk) 22:43, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

The sources in the first paragraph refer to the spelling of the city name, not the chicken dish. Wikipedia follows change, it does not initiate it. When a majority of the world's restaurants, shops and reliable sources start to offer "Chicken Kyiv" then we will change the article title. The change by one supermarket chain is but a start. WWGB (talk) 01:19, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia follows change, it does not initiate it.

All right, but the people with the authority to decide their own nomenclature, the Ukrainians, have expressed their desire for a corrected spelling, the importance of which is explained in careful detail in the first link I provided in my statement above. I request you to read it for its critical context, please.

 

As a corollary, Wikipedia should not allocate unto itself a competing authority to override the wishes of the Ukrainians. If the city is now called Kyiv, the chicken dish named after it should follow suit, because to do otherwise is to honour the insolent Russian spelling (the imperially abusive Russian spelling is explained carefully in this first article link, reproduced here for convenience) which the Ukrainians have vehemently rejected.

 

Does Wikipedia not respect that choice? To be pedantic and say that one is the name of a city and the other is the name of a dish, the spelling of which must be retained for God knows what "important" reason, is petty quibbling at the best of times and looks especially nasty and reactionary in the present horrific circumstances.

 

History has taught us that inappropriately clinging to rules can be a terrible choice, and in this case puts the encyclopaedia on the wrong side of history for merely petty, merely bureaucratic, officious reasons. Please see the bigger picture. O'Dea (talk) 03:05, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

"in this case puts the encyclopaedia on the wrong side of history". Good god, man. Cool it with the melodrama. It's over transliteration of a foreign alphabet. More importantly, it's over a chicken dish. --2A02:C7E:44D4:4100:889F:A287:8BC8:7DEE (talk) 14:14, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

No, Wikipedia is for all peoples and not obliged to do what one government says. Equinox ◑ 05:27, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

No. The names of dishes and other food and drink are cultural objects in their own standing with a history and not normally subject to these changes. We still say Pekin duck, Chicken Madras and Bombay potatoes, not Beijing duck, Chicken Chennai and Mumbai potatoes. People/supermarkets etc calling it Chicken Kyiv are making a political statement about the current war and while I personally largely agree with the sentiment if not the action, Wikipedia articles should remain politically neutral and timeless. Agneau (talk) 11:06, 5 March 2022 (UTC)

• I saw someone complain about the spelling of this dish on social media recently and came here to see if anyone here was similarly confused. I echo the points made by WWGB and Agneau above. While I favored the move of the city itself to Kyiv some time ago, there is no evidence the spelling of the dish is changing by anyone other than a few well-meaning but confused souls. If anyone starts an RM, that would be unfortunate, but please notify me. —В²C ☎ 08:09, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

  The argument has been going on for years, and although the consensus of the city name is swinging towards "Kyiv" (indeed it is Wikipedia policy to use that), "Kiev" still seems the common usage for this dish (as in the example of Chicken Madras and Peking Duck as being members of the "colonial fowl club" as referred to above). Quite apart from the historical basis for the use of the name "Kiev" in English, it should be noted that the English language does not always use the local name when it comes to cities, e.g. Moscow, Warsaw, Rome, Munich, Athens, Lisbon, Dublin and even Odessa. Shritwod (talk) 13:24, 12 March 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 March 2022

Change “Kyiv” to “Kiev”.

The name of the dish, which originated in Russia, is Chicken Kiev. At the very least, the article should identify both spellings. 14.200.54.50 (talk) 01:51, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: The article consistently refers to the dish as chicken Kiev, with both spellings mentioned in the introduction (and one source being about the change in spelling). The city consistently uses the native spelling of Kyiv and is linked on the first usage as the city. —C.Fred (talk) 01:56, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Peking duck

The article draws an analogy between 'chicken Kiev' and 'Peking duck'. This is unfair. First, the duck dish is almost universally called 'Peking duck' in English, whereas 'chicken Kyiv' is increasingly standard. Secondly, 'Peking' is not 'disfavoured' the way 'Kiev' is. It is simply old. It would be more neutral to simply say that 'Peking duck' uses an old form of the city's name. --49.255.185.235 (talk) 01:59, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Not sure where this is coming from. I pretty much only see Chicken Kiev, and Peking is probably more disfavored than Kiev (not withstanding the last few weeks). Fyunck(click) (talk) 03:30, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Hi there, I didn't say it was less, or more, disfavoured, but that Peking is not 'disfavoured' in the same way. "Chicken Kiev" is being actively "disfavoured" due to perceived political insensibility, given its Russian connotations and the current war: e.g. here, or here. "Peking" is not "disfavoured" in that sense - "Peking" is the old spelling, but "Peking duck" is alive and well and not being politically opposed. There is no active movement to rebrand "Peking duck" to "Beijing duck". My point is the analogy is not apt, at least in the terms as currently phrased. --49.255.185.235 (talk) 06:20, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

As far as recent, recent to Wikipedia is like the last couple years. We don't look at what happens over 3 weeks. That's for newspapers. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:14, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Polish Version

It is also very popular in Poland where it is also known as kotlet de volaille or devolaj. The sentence "Stuffed chicken breast is generally known in Ukrainian and Russian cuisines as côtelette de volaille" should have Poland added to the list as well as its omission gives the false impression that the dish is only significant in Ukraine and Russia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.9.195.168 (talk) 17:32, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2022

Remove reference to Kyiv in the first sentence leaving just Kiev.

This request has been raised because just one British supermarket has changed it's packaging (see footnote#2 article) probably just for commercial gain, and by no means a justification to amend decades of history. 188.31.208.3 (talk) 10:37, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: This is actually a controversial edit, so you'll need to discuss first with other editors. Please open a new section here and start a discussion. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:49, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2022

Please change Chicken Kiev to Chicken Kyiv! Kyiv is capital of UKRAINE and the English version of UKRAINIAN name is KYIV! 94.254.176.6 (talk) 05:55, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done Per Wikipedia consensus and sources it is Chicken Kiev and only sometimes Chicken Kyiv. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:06, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 October 2022

Change “Kiev” spelling to “Kyiv”. The dish is widely cooked in Ukraine, and everywhere it's being cooked it's called “Chicken Kyiv”. “Kiev” spelling is Russian-derived and is not used anymore. Moreover, it's inappropriate and offensive to spell “Kiev”, especially while referring to the Ukrainian traditional cuisine.

These sources prove why “Kyiv” spelling is better and more accurate: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/kyiv-not-kiev-why-spelling-matters-in-ukraines-quest-for-an-independent-identity/ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/25/how-to-pronounce-and-spell-kyiv-kiev-ukraine-and-why-it-matters https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/kyiv-kiev-ukraine-name-b2023400.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KyivNotKiev Oksana Beseda (talk) 09:41, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. As stated many times above. Current consensus is to use "Kiev" for this dish name since it's still the more commonly used name of the dish (even though Kyiv is no longer frequently spelled as Kiev). Perhaps get a new consensus, and/or show sources that show people using chicken Kyiv as this dish's spelling nowadays (not just people using Kyiv to refer to the city). 💜  melecie  talk - 09:53, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

first paragraph capitalization edit request

In the lede, the clause "sometimes known as Chicken Kyiv" has both initials in the noun capitalized, when chicken Kiev is generally written with the first initial lowercased when referred to in sentence case, including in this article. IMO, the clause should read "sometimes known as chicken Kyiv". Kyoto Grand (talk) 18:57, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

You're absolutely correct. I try to correct this whenever I see this come up on my watchlist but people always re-mangle it. You should always feel free to fix this; food names that are not trademarked are not capitalised except to the extent of words that are the names of individual people or places. - Julietdeltalima (talk) 20:29, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

That needs to be fully discussed and vetted here as to whether it's a proper name. You don't have a dish name of just Kiev... it's Chicken Kiev. There are also many sources that use chicken kiev with no capitals. If you go by strict wikipedia rules unless all the sources capitalize nothing should be capitalized. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:52, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Did you read everything I wrote? Words that are the names of individual people or places ARE still capitalized: chicken Kiev, oysters Rockefeller, peach Melba, Cincinnati chili, etc. But just because one word is a proper noun doesn't mean the entire title of the dish is capitalized. "Peking Duck", "Thousand Island Dressing", and "Memphis-Style Barbecue" are unequivocally incorrect; they're Peking duck, Thousand Island dressing, and Memphis-style barbecue. And there are plenty of instances in which the generic food type is the first name in the dish without any words warranting capitalization, like pasta primavera; no one calls it "primavera" any more than the name "chicken Kiev" means that the dish is somehow known only as "Kiev" (or "Kyiv"), or oysters Rockefeller are known only as "Rockefeller". It's as though there is an elided à la in the middle. Apparently people do call cacciatore and tetrazzini only by those names, but those dishes are made with many different substrates. I've never heard of, e.g., salami Kiev or carrots Rockefeller, although I suppose those sound like excellent food-blogger challenges. - Julietdeltalima (talk) 00:07, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

But not if they are not usually capitalized in sources. Usually I see Chicken Kiev in recipes whether its Food52 or Everyday Cooking. Sure chicken is often not capitalized, but so is kiev in the dish. It keeps getting reverted by folks (my first time) because it's not what they know, it's not what they see, and it looks weird. Fyunck(click) (talk) 01:02, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Get rid of Russian language for Ukrainian Articles?

We all know that Russia has invaded Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia et al multiple times and have forced the people there to abandon their language and speak Russian, and even planted Russians in positions of power as kind of a "cultural genocide" to their neighboring countries, but now that Russia is doing an actual, physical genocide on Ukraine, maybe we should not put the Russian language translation alongside Ukrainian translations, and certainly not BEFORE Ukrainian.

The same would go for Georgian, Latvian, Estonian, Belarussian, Khazak and all the other languages and people that Russia is trying to wipe from existence. I know Wikipedia has to be unbiased, but we also shouldn't side with dictators and terrorists or promote them. We can tell facts about them, as any good encyclopedia does, but we shouldn't help their cause.

Thoughts? Miketheburns (talk) 09:56, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read the voluminous discussions elshwhere on this talkpage. Acroterion (talk) 10:00, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

This is not a Russian language translation or a cultural genocide. This is a chicken dish. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 00:23, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

On the contrary, you have summed up the reasons that chicken Kyiv has recently gained usage: because of the recognition that the other spelling is derived from Russian after centuries of cultural suppression and genocide. A catchall term is decolonization. —Michael Z. 16:01, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

So much suppression, that Ukraine appeared on map. Decolonization refers strictly to Western mentality. The nations, which Russia supported and invested into developed narcissism and thought they would do fine without it. Huge mistake. As a proof observe the bankruptcy of Latvian RRR electronics plant or look at citation first President of Ukraine Kravchuk: in 1991 Russia left Ukraine with second largest army in Europe and economical power equal to France. Fast forward to 2013 and over 1/3 population compared to 1991 have migrated away, and there is enough public indignation to revolt against own oligarches, all of which were ruling the country with West mentality. 20 years to drive top republic into abyss, well done.89.1.150.225 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 01:41, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

For those who request name change

I took the time to say this earlier today [1], but someone censored it. But feel it needs to be told as I have indeed noticed the frequency of edits requesting name changes. Yet noticed all those editors seem to have the wrongful assumptions that this is a dish that belongs to Ukraine because of its name alone. Except that's wrong. Whatever the first name was, the dish likely didn't even all originate in Ukraine. It came likely from France and spread to Russia afterwards. A restaurant in Ukraine reportedly started calling it as Chicken Kiev and that name became popular not just in Russia but internationally for over a century. So the common name is Chicken Kiev not because it's owned by a country. But because the people who named it, chose that term and it's been the Common term in many recipe books globally for over a century . And it's not up to us to suddenly rewrite history and claim as if it was never called chicken Kiev for a long period. Wikipedia editors are not a monopoly where we rewrite history. We cannot suddenly tell the original author of the name that they were now wrong to call it as chicken Kiev because you now feel strong political feelings towards a chicken dish. And for crying out loud, it's a chicken dish. Not some political ideology or conflict. Just like South China Sea doesn't mean the sea belongs to China. Simply having a word of (Kyiv or Kiev) doesn't automatically mean this is officially an Ukrainian only dish that only belongs to Ukraine. Instead Ukraine used to be part of the same country as Russia and so of course they originally use the Russian spelling as Russian was their official top language at the time the dish was named. And its reported history is that Russia had some cooks go to France a long time ago and bring back a recipe that became super popular in Russia, and eventually one named it as Chicken Kiev, and that was the name that spread. Nowadays geography and politics may have changed but that doesn't necessarily mean that a long time chicken dish needs to be renamed. Peking duck is incorrect yet people use that spelling because it was the original spelling and it shouldn't need to be politically correct. And for a long time, chicken Kiev has always been called Chicken Kiev and even english speaking PC BBC today calls it as chicken Kiev.[2] As well as Britannica encyclopaedia and the professional english Webster dictionary. [3] [4] and today I went to the shops and picked up a frozen box of Chicken Kiev. https://ibb.co/HDhDhvv My point being it has been like this from the beginning for over a century now, and its original and historically and still currently dominant common spelling is both independent from and should take precedence over petty politics and changing geography. 49.180.89.165 (talk) 09:14, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Seems to miss the point.

Anyway, here’s the BBC using chicken Kyiv four months ago[5] (the OP’s example link is from c 2010). Retailers in Australia,[6] Canada,[7] and the UK[8] have updated their spelling. So we know it’s not a century ago. Resisting change or complaining about it can also be an example of petty politics.  —Michael Z. 18:17, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

You miss the point. You mention BBC but so far all its articles on the dish still calls it as (chicken Kiev). [9] They don't do that for no reason. Btw I am from Australia and also OP here but (IP auto changed by itself). In major retailer Coles supermarket over here, they still call it Chicken Kiev.[10] but you make it sound like everyone has now changed it in Australia, except only really a handful have and for political reasons. Note not all have gone political on this and changed. And most if not all BBC chicken Kiev dishes today still uses (chicken Kiev) spelling to this day. You just managed to find one odd BBC article yet I can't find a single BBC recipe article that actually says (chicken Kyiv). 49.186.235.19 (talk) 01:18, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

The Ukrainian government has already in 2009 launched a campaign abroad to request the name be spelt as Kyiv. It is a very reasonable request, since Kiev is the Russified version of the name, and Kyiv is the Ukrainian language variant. Kyiv is a Ukrainian city. The name of the Chinese capital was changed from Peking to Beijing on the Chinese government's request. There is tendency to use latinised names that closer resemble the original names. Turkey has recently changes its name to Turkiye. The fact that these changes do not always reach all corners does not mean it is invalid? So, if the owner of a restaurant somewhere is not aware of these changes, does it mean those who respect the wishes of other governments do it for poitical reasons? Come on! 93.79.110.246 (talk) 17:23, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Pretty amusing that you bring up Beijing as part of your argument when peking duck is by and far the WP:COMMONNAME in English. Cannolis (talk) 17:32, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Peking duck, Madras curry, Bombay potato all use old colonial-era names, which are broadly accepted because that is what the dish is called in common usage. In English we sometimes use the local names, sometimes our own - for example Germany, Greece, Finland, Japan bear little resemblance to what those countries call themselves. We call the cocktail a Moscow mule even though the city is called Moskva. The French call London Londres and the Italians call it Londra but I don't think Londoners are upset about that. But then we use the French word for France and a direct transliteration of the Russian word for Russia. Nobody I know calls Turkey Türkiye because that's regarded as just silly, and we understand the difference between a country and a bird you eat for Christmas dinner. There is - I believe - a broad consensus to refer to the capital of Ukraine as Kyiv and not Kiev in the same way that we don't called the country "The Ukraine", much as we don't called Argentina "The Argentine" any more. This is not a political statement - in my opinion Vladimir Putin belongs in a very small, damp and rat-infested prison cell for the rest of his miserable life. It is merely a linguistic description as opposed to linguistic prescription. Shritwod (talk) 20:20, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Well we renamed the article Kyiv when that spelling was not used by the majority of sources. I believe during the discussions one participant estimated it was 11 or 12 percent of usage at the time (no memory of what their metric was), although Google Ngram says it was 30% in 2019.[11] So there is some nuance to how it is “description.” —Michael Z. 20:57, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

So, your argument is that we made an incorrect move in the past so we should make another one now? Not really impressed with that reasoning. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 20:41, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

No, that is not my argument at all. It would be helpful if you understood the reasons Kyiv was renamed: see Special:Permalink/978661752#Requested move 28 August 2020.  —Michael Z. 21:03, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2023

93.79.110.246 (talk) 17:14, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

The name of this dish should now be written as Chicken Kyiv - which is the original Ukrainian name of the city

 Not done: see responses to identical requests above Cannolis (talk) 17:24, 20 June 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2023

Change Kiev to Kyiv 2403:6200:8870:6C04:C75:7D5F:E329:A61 (talk) 07:48, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done see past discussions. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:51, 8 November 2023 (UTC)