Talk:Great Seal of the Realm

Untitled

This does not seem a proper redirect. The page redirected to discusses the history of the keeper of the seal, not what the seal is, nor the role it plays in goverment. Elde 06:51, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Edward VIII

What about Edward VIII's seal? Kowalmistrz (talk) 14:42, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

English translation of Elizabeth II's seal

The Latin of Elizabeth II's seal is pretty clearly indicating that she's the queen of Britain (or maybe "the Britains?") -- Britanniarum, but in the English translation her English-language title of "Great Britain and Northern Ireland" is given instead. --Jfruh (talk) 15:36, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

This English translation certainly isn't as literal as the others are. It is the full title of which the Latin is the official translation, apparently. Perhaps there ought to be two English translations here, the literal and the official? As it is, it may be confusing to anyone trying to decipher the Latin. Cymrodor (talk) 00:33, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Her Majesty's title is defined by an Order in Counsel, which gives an official English version and an official Latin version. In the Latin version "of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" is rendered "Britanniarum", which literally means "of the Britains" (not "of the Britons", which would be Britanniorum). Hogweard (talk) 22:18, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Commissioners

We have an article on the Lord Keeper of the Great Seal but no article or section on Commissioner of the Great Seal. Rich Farmbrough, 14:13, 27 February 2012 (UTC).

Some monarchs had more than one great seal

It needs to be made clear which seal is being used. For example Henry VIII had three seals during his reign. He was not style Defender of the Faith until after the Pope said he was, and he did not become King of Ireland until some time after his reign started (before that he was style like his father Lord of Ireland).

In the long term I would suggest that the years in which a seal was in used is added to the article, but in the short term, it would be useful to note if a monarch had more than one great seal.

Edward IV, and probably Richard III also, used a ... seal, with an open crown, for French affairs, and it was the latter that Henry VII took as the model for his own seal, which shows him wearing an open crown with a cap of maintenance beneath. The first seal of Henry VIII was of a similar character, but his second seal, used between 1532 and 1542, and his third seal, used between 1542 and his death in 1547, shows him with a closed crown,... (Grierson 1964, p. 131).

• Grierson, Philip (28 January 1964), The origins of the English sovereign and the sybolism of the closed crown (PDF), British Numismatic Society

-- PBS (talk) 10:16, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Recent changes to lead

I'd like to explain my recent reverts. I believe this version [1] is poorly written because the lead sentence focuses on the union of Scotland and England to form Great Britain -- no where in it does it explain what seal is. This is in violation of WP:LEAD, which states "The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points."The version I've tried reverting to [2] does explain what the seal is and complies with WP:LEAD. Calidum 02:16, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Your point is understood, and no more edits will take place to the existing lead paragraph until we both reach a consensus. The lead paragraph is inconsistent with the body of the article because before the union of Scotland and England, Queen Anne did not style herself Queen of England, she styled herself Queen of Great Britain. You have to understand the paradox situation. Her realm did not only include the Kingdom of England it also included the Kingdom of Scotland. Two Kingdoms, One Realm, and that occurred because in 1603, the Kingdom of England, essentially, in the royal sense, became a vassal kingdom of the Kingdom of Scotland. Meenmore (talk) 02:31, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

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Incorrect and unsourced seal legends.

Researching the seal of William & Mary I read the legend here as ending 'Golden apples grow in flowering rosebushes : The security of Britain restored.' but this is not the right inscription, it is one taken from a commemorative coronation medal. I found this in D. Macleane The great solemnity of the coronation... (London 1911) pp. 168-169 but there was no citation provided for the incorrect original. None of the other seal legends on the page have been cited, and may be similarly inaccurate. Corinthians2021 (talk) 12:21, 16 April 2021 (UTC)

Crown Office Tweets

See [this thread]. Some of it could be incorporated. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 23:11, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Great Seal of the United Kingdom

Manuscript copy of the treaty of Union's first folio, with the "United Kingdom" and "United Kingdom of Great Britain" written with all words capitalized in Articles I and II

DeCausa you have undone [3] my change to the first sentence without justification, and supplying an erroneous claim in lieu of it. The Acts of Union clearly state, in the first instance, that the seal is to be known as the "the Great Seal for the United Kingdom of Great Britain" [sic], followed by two references to "the Great Seal of the United Kingdom" [sic] without any mention of "Great Britain". There does not appear to be any substance to your suggestion that the word "United" should be decapitalized, and even if it were, as was frequently the case in early American constitutional documents, that would not change the fact that the standard spelling of the "United Kingdom of Great Britain" is to capitalize both initials. Furthermore, the manuscript copies of the Treaty of Union demonstrate, that, at least in Articles I and II, the "United Kingdom" and "United Kingdom of Great Britain" are written as such, and not as "united Kingdom of Great Britain", as you have tried to claim. The wisest fool in Christendom (talk) 17:12, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Please see the text of the Articles of Union provided by the UK Parliament website here. As you can see in Article XXIV "united" is not capitalilized every time it is mentioned. Parliament has deliberately used this orthography to avoid the confusion that you have fallen into. But this is a side issue. The main point is you are over-interpeting a primary text in a way that is not permitted in Wikipedia - please see WP:PRIMARY. The major point is the United Kingdom was created in 1801.[4][5][6]. The state that existed between 1707 and 1801 was called simply "Great Britain" and normally referred to as the Kingdom of Great Britain. You can't misuse the looseness of 18th century orthography to change this and claim the "United Kingdom" and its seal pre-dates 1801. (WP:PRIMARY doesn't allow you to do that.). One cannot draw conclusions from whether a letter is or is not capitalised in an 18th century document - modern orthographical rules didn't apply. What Parliament's version of the Articles of Union I linked to does is to correct that looseness so there is no such misuse. DeCausa (talk) 18:09, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

By the way, I thought you might like the irony of the 1800 Act of Union refering to the "Great Seal of Great Britain"[7]. DeCausa (talk) 19:38, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

DeCausa, apologies for my long answer, but your claims need answering in full. Firstly, at least one of your sources directly contradicts your claim:

• Arnold-Baker, Charles (2015) [1996]. von Blumenthal, Henry (ed.). The Companion to British History. Routledge. p. 594. ISBN 978-1-317-40040-0. There were Great Seals for Scotland and Ireland, but the Great Seal of the United Kingdom superseded the former in 1707 and the latter in 1800.

The other two simply say that the present-day UK was created in 1801, which is perfectly true, but wholly irrelevant to the question of what the Great Seal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain was called.

Secondly, you appear to be doing precisely what you warn against: you claim "Parliament has deliberately used this orthography" but then "You can't misuse the looseness of 18th century orthography" and "One cannot draw conclusions from whether a letter is or is not capitalised in an 18th century document". You appear to be misusing one document (which decapitalizes "united", which was not done in 1707) to invalidate another document on legislation.gov.uk which does (exactly as was done in 1707). As you may know, capitalizing all nouns was common practice in the 18th century, which is why, for example, the American Declaration of Independence did not capitalize "united" in "united States of America". All the more reason why it is striking that the 1707 manuscript used "United Kingdom" and not "united Kingdom". Apart from anything else, your claim that "Parliament has deliberately used this orthography" obviously isn't even true, since in some places the orthography "United Kingdom" is used. Moreover, the document you cite is not a publication of parliament, even if the PDF is hosted on the parliamentary website. Rather, it is a transcription from "Tome IV" of "The History and Proceedings of the House of Commons" published in 1742 (it says this at the foot of the PDF). So what you done is to argue that the handwritten copy of 1707 is wrong, and the digital copy on legislation.gov.uk is wrong, because a middle 18th-century private publication ("London: Printed for Richard Chandler, and sold at the Ship without Temple-Bar, and at York and Scarborough. 1742") fails to capitalize "united" in "United Kingdom". This is a very unsound argument! Your claim "Parliament has deliberately used this orthography" simply isn't true. One might equally apply it to the parliamentary website which today says:

• "Act of Union 1707". UK Parliament. The Acts of Union, passed by the English and Scottish Parliaments in 1707, led to the creation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain on 1 May of that year. The UK Parliament met for the first time in October 1707.

Thirdly, if the United Kingdom, and its Great Seal, did not exist in 1707, then it would be very curious of the Parliament of Great Britain to make such laws as:

• "Scottish Episcopalians Act 1711". legislation.gov.uk. 1711. And whereas since the Establishment of the Presbyterian Government in Scotland some Laws have been made by the Parliament in Scotland against the Episcopal Clergy of that Part of the United Kingdom and particularly an Act passed in the Parliament held in the Year One thousand six hundred ninety five ...
• "Heritable Jurisdictions (Scotland) Act 1746". legislation.gov.uk. 1746. An Act for taking away and abolishing the Heritable Jurisdictions in Scotland; and for making Satisfaction to the Proprietors thereof; and for restoring such Jurisdictions to the Crown; and for making more effectual Provision for the Administration of Justice throughout that Part of the United Kingdom, by the King's Courts and Judges there; . . . and for rendering the Union of the Two Kingdoms more complete.
• "Bank Notes (Scotland) Act 1765". legislation.gov.uk. 1765. WHEREAS a practice has prevailed in … [Words repealed by Statute Law Revision Act 1948] … Scotland, of issuing notes, commonly called bank notes, for sums of money payable to the bearer on demand, or, in the option of the issuer or granter, payable at the end of six months, with a sum equal to the legal interest, from the demand to that time: And whereas notes, with such option as aforesaid have been and are circulated in that part of the United Kingdom to a great extent, and do pass, from hand to hand, as specie, whereby great inconveniences have arisen: ...

What does this "United Kingdom" refer to if not the same "United Kingdom" mentioned several dozen times in the 1707 Acts of Union? Where is the reliable source that claims that the United Kingdom created in 1707 was somehow not the United Kingdom and that the Great Seal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain was somehow repeatedly wrongly named in the Acts of Union?

Thirdly, reliable sources state quite unequivocally that the United Kingdom was created in 1707. Among them I cite Professor John Ford, Chair in Civil Law at the University of Aberdeen; Dr Alexander Murdoch, of the University of Edinburgh; Allan MacInnes, Emeritus Professor of History at the University of Strathclyde; Colin Turpin, Fellow of Clare College, Emeritus Reader in Public Law at the University of Cambridge, and sometime editor of the Cambridge Law Journal; Adam Tomkins, John Millar Professor of Public Law at the University of Glasgow; Roger Masterman, Professor of Constitutional Law at Durham Law School and editor of the journal Public Law; Colin Murray, Professor of Law and Democracy at Newcastle Law School; W. A. Speck, Professor of Modern History at the University of Leeds and sometime president of the Historical Association;and Niall Ferguson, Milbank Family Senior Fellow at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University and formerly Laurence A. Tisch Professor of History at Harvard University. Are all of these people wrong, in your esteemed view?

• Alexander Murdoch. "England, Scotland, and the Acts of Union (1707)". Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. doi:10.1093/ref:odnb/96282. On 1 May 1707 England and Scotland (since 1603 a union of crowns) became the 'United Kingdom of Great Britain'. The new united kingdom was to be represented by a 'union' flag and governed by a British parliament at Westminster and a shared head of state (with the contentious issue of monarchical succession now settled in favour of the protestant house of Hanover).
• Alexander Murdoch (2007-05-31). "The Creation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain in 1707". The Historical Association. Why did both the parliaments of Scotland and England vote themselves out of existence in 1707 in order to create a new 'United Kingdom of Great Britain'?
• "Citizenship | Rise of Parliament | Uniting the Kingdom". The National Archives. ... in 1707 Acts of Union were passed by the Parliaments of England and Scotland, forming the United Kingdom of Great Britain.
• Allan I. Macinnes (2011-02-17). "British History in depth: Acts of Union: The creation of the United Kingdom". BBC History. The most important consideration in the making of the United Kingdom in 1707 was the standpoint of England." ... "Queen Anne played a proactive role in the making of the United Kingdom, not least because she was outraged by the endeavours of the Scottish estates to impose limitations on the prerogative powers of her eventual successor.
• Ford, J. D. (2007). "The Legal Provisions in the Acts of Union". The Cambridge Law Journal. 66 (1): 106–141. ISSN 0008-1973. On 1 May 2007 it will be three hundred years since the United Kingdom of Great Britain was created by statutes passed in the separate parliaments of Scotland and England. ... From insisting before 1607 that a closer union in trade, civil government and taxation could only be achieved if Scotland was subjected to the laws of England, the English commissioners and parliament had come to accept by 1707 that the laws and courts of Scotland could mostly be allowed to survive in the United Kingdom of Great Britain.
• Turpin, Colin; Tomkins, Adam (2007). "Devolution and the structure of the United Kingdom". British Government and the Constitution: Text and Materials (6 ed.). Cambridge University Press. p. 195. doi:10.1017/cbo9780511802904.005. ISBN 978-0-521-69029-4. Scotland and England, under the same Crown from 1603 but with separate institutions of government, were joined in the United Kingdom of Great Britain in 1707 by the Treaty and Acts of Union. Articles of Union, agreed in 1706 by Commissioners acting on behalf of the Parliament of each country, were adopted by Acts of Union passed by the English Parliament in 1706 and the Scottish Parliament in 1707.
• Masterman, Roger; Murray, Colin (2022). "The United Kingdom's Devolution Arrangements". Constitutional and Administrative Law (3 ed.). Cambridge University Press. doi:10.1017/9781009158497.024. ISBN 978-1-009-15849-7. A treaty was signed between Scotland and England unifying the two countries in 1706, being accepted by the Parliaments of Scotland and England in the Acts of Union of 1706–07. Henceforth Scotland and England, which in this deal included Wales, became parts of the new 'United Kingdom', although both maintained separate established churches, education systems and legal systems
• Speck, W. A. (1993). A Concise History of Britain, 1707-1975. p. 1. This concise history covers the period from the formation of the United Kingdom of Great Britain in 1707 to the entry of the British into the European Economic Community in the 1970s.
• Speck, W. A. (1993). A Concise History of Britain, 1707-1975. p. 20. The most immediately pressing conditions were that England and Scotland should merge in the United Kingdom of Great Britain, and that the succession to the British throne in the House of Hanover should be upheld.
• Ferguson, Niall (2004) [2003]. Empire: How Britain Made the Modern World. p. 30. And, with the union of the Parliaments in 1707, a second merger had produced a redoubtable new entity: the United Kingdom of Great Britain, a term originally propagated by James I to reconcile Scotland to being annexed by England — and the English to being ruled by a Scot.

Lastly, the fact that the UK was established in 1707 is not some arcane fact, but common knowledge, widely reported.

• "England - Profile". BBC News. 2011-12-12. This Kingdom of England had a distinct identity until it was subsumed into the United Kingdom of Great Britain in 1707.
• Hannah Furness (2012-01-11). "Scottish referendum: 50 fascinating facts you should know about Scotland". The Telegraph. Scotland has been part of the United Kingdom for more than three hundred years

Please forgive the slightly overkill nature of the citations, but it really is quite beyond contention that the United Kingdom of Great Britain was created by acts of parliaments in 1707, with a seal to match, just as the Treaty of Union, and the Acts of Union which ratified it state, and just as subsequent 18th-century legislation makes plain. The wisest fool in Christendom (talk) 21:33, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

WP:WALLOFTEXT which will be ignored. On a scan, none of it seem relavant. To cut to the chase: here's WP:RS that reference it as the "Great Seal of Great Britain".[8] End of. DeCausa (talk) 21:39, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

DeCausa, Your "RS" was originally published in 1874 and repeatedly uses the phrase "Great Seal of the United Kingdom". Under the heading "NOTE 84 - The Great Seal of the United Kingdom", it says the following:

• Baxter, Wynne (1874) [1996]. The Law and Practice of the Supreme Court of Judicature, Comprising the Supreme Court of Judicature Act, 1873: Supreme Court of Judicature (commencement) Act, 1874, Rules of Court, Notes, Statutes Referred To, and a Very Copious Index. Routledge. p. 178. The great seal (clavis regni Lat.), the emblem of sovereignty, introduced by Edward the Confessor. By Art. 34 of the Union between England and Scotland (5 Anne 8), it is provided that there should be one Great Seal for the United Kingdom, to be used for sealing writs to summon the Parliament …

This appears to directly contradict your claims. End of? The wisest fool in Christendom (talk) 21:49, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes end of. Just google "Great Seal of Great Britain" literally dozens and dozens of statutory references. This is a waste of time. Start an RfC if you're really that obsessed and ill-informed. DeCausa (talk) 21:59, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

DeCausa If I'm the one that's ill-informed, why is you that has repeatedly tried to support your arguments with documents that don't support your claims and clearly support the fact that "Great Seal of the the United Kingdom" was used in 1707 and after? Won't an RfC just tell you same thing? The wisest fool in Christendom (talk) 22:02, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

I've just notice what you previously said! It only refers to the GS of the UK post-1801! It quite clearly refers to "great seal of Great Britain" prior to that. You seem to have a comprehension problem. I'm sorry, WP:CIR. DeCausa (talk) 22:06, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

DeCausa No, I think it must be you who has a problem comprehending. The sources you produced say, quite unequivocally, "By Art. 34 of the Union between England and Scotland (5 Anne 8), it is provided that there should be one Great Seal for the United Kingdom". The "Union between England and Scotland" took place in 1707, by means of the Acts of Union 1707, which Wynne Baxter cites as "5 Anne 8", i.e., in the reign of Anne, Queen of Great Britain. The wisest fool in Christendom (talk) 22:10, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

And again, another source you supplied says: "There were Great Seals for Scotland and Ireland, but the Great Seal of the United Kingdom superseded the former in 1707 and the latter in 1800." The wisest fool in Christendom (talk) 22:12, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

"The Office of Keeper of the Great Seal of Great Britain". Can you read???? DeCausa (talk) 22:13, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

Sure I can read. I would be grateful if you have similar courtesy. I even put the relevant sections in bold to help you. The wisest fool in Christendom (talk) 22:14, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

And I even put it in quotes for you. I ask again, can you read that? Or do you have a difficultly with the phrase "The Office of Keeper of the Great Seal of Great Britain". Is there something about that that confuses you? DeCausa (talk) 22:17, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

What confuses me is that you yourself have laid out two sources which unequivocally state that in 1707, a new seal was created which was called the Great Seal of the United Kingdom. Are you disputing this now? Are you questioning the reliability of the sources which minutes ago you described as "RS"? If not, why then do you continue to claim that the Great Seal was not called what it is called in the Acts of Union? Or have you dropped this untenable claim now? The wisest fool in Christendom (talk) 22:20, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

FFS, this is going in circles. The reference to "United Kingdom" is not to the 1707 creation but, as a name, to the 1801 creation. Your orthographic confusion was widely discussed across Wikipedia and what I'm trying to tell you is the WP:CONSENSUS. Check out multiple related articles - you're not saying anything that wasn't raised and dismissed a decade ago. Otherwise, how on earth do you explain the attestation of the Act of Union 1800 being "His Majesty...shall declare under the Great Seal of Great Britain.."[9]. (don't bother answering, I won't be reading it). Start an RfC. DeCausa (talk) 22:35, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

No, I'm afraid that your claim is untenable. It is not possible to derive the erroneous claim:

• the reference to "United Kingdom" is not to the 1707 creation but, as a name, to the 1801 creation.

from the source text:

• By Art. 34 of the Union between England and Scotland (5 Anne 8), it is provided that there should be one Great Seal for the United Kingdom".

This text makes no mention of Ireland or of 1801. It cannot be reasonably denied that the source, just like all the others I have cited, and just like the Acts of Union themselves, explicitly says the "Great Seal of the United Kingdom'" was created as consequence of Article 34 [recte 24] of the Acts of Union. This Article 24 states, as has already been said:

• "That from and after the Union there be one Great Seal for the United Kingdom of Great Britain which shall be different from the Great Seal now used in either Kingdom" … "the Great Seal of the United Kingdom"

If it's going in circles it's because you refuse to accept the obvious. The wisest fool in Christendom (talk) 23:30, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

On the BBC Bitesize website it makes it clear for even for children: "A Great Seal of the United Kingdom of Great Britain would replace the separate seals of both Scotland and England. The Scottish crown jewels were to remain in Scotland." The wisest fool in Christendom (talk) 23:32, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

If there was any further room for doubt, on dealing with the actual seal Queen Anne had made following the union of 1707, Wyon & Wyon, in their very detailed work on the Great Seals, say of Anne's second seal:

• Wyon, Alfred Benjamin; Wyon, Allan (1887). The Great Seals of England: From the Earliest Period to the Present Time. Arranged and Illustrated with Descriptive and Historical Notes. London: Chiswick Press. p. 116. This Seal was rendered necessary by the Act of Union (between England and Scotland) which received Royal Assent on the 6th March, 1707, and which, amongst other things, provided that from and after the Union there should be one Great Seal for the United Kingdom of Great Britain, which was to be different from the Great Seal previously in use in either kingdom

That about nails down the coffin of any claim that there was not a "Great Seal of the United Kingdom" from 1707. The wisest fool in Christendom (talk) 02:39, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Ha! WP:AGEMATTERS: antiquarian engraver quoting directly 18th century text (just as you did). Hardly! DeCausa (talk) 07:07, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that the source you quoted from 1874 is acceptable (even though it proves my arguments and disproves yours), but a source from 1887 is unacceptable because it's too old? Are you aware that that does not make sense? Previously you relied on a source from 1742. Aren't you applying a double standard in an effort to defend the indefensible? The wisest fool in Christendom (talk) 16:14, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

And can you stop pinging me. It's not the norm to do that in an ongoing thread. DeCausa (talk) 22:09, 21 October 2023 (UTC)