Talk:Justice League (TV series)

Untitled

202.8.13.68, Hereafter is not the same episode as The Savage Time. The naunces of the origins of episode name without anything else relating to the episodes is too jarring and unatural for some people, such as me. -Apostrophe

Complaints

Does anybody else notice that it seems like this whole wiki is a list of complaints against the creator's of the show? Why did we even write this if we all hate it so much.--Gillespee 22:46, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Indeed the page does have an overabundance of complaints. Some are viable though. I would like to form some kind of collaboration to improve this article.-

Finite 01:34, 21 December 2005 (UTC) 01:33, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Are there some complaints we could remove? Should we add in more positive things?--Gillespee 17:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think any of the complaints warrant removal as they all have been targeted at the show, but this sucker certainly needs a bit more positivity. I think more information about what it's praised for, about it's production, how accurately it portrays the characters, that sort of thing, would be helpful.--Finite 21:55, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I can't imagine anything WORSE to include in an 'encyclopedic' article on Justice League than fan complaints. Comic fans, by nature, complain about any changes; no matter what, we're going to be able to find people who had problems with just about every choice Timm and Co made. Simnel 18:29, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Okay, I cut the 'Controversy' section. No other comic book page has a section on 'Stuff fans bitch about'. Simnel 01:15, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Controversy

Justice League proved very popular with fans of the comic book and the previous animated versions of Batman and Superman by Bruce Timm, but some fans were disappointed in the show's depiction of Batman, criticizing Timm and the other writers having a bias in favor of Batman against the other characters, most notably Superman. Citing many instances where Batman achieved feats that technically even he isn't capable of and of displaying far more intelligence than Superman, at times practically the only member of the League who actually does think while the others just listen and follow, with Superman in particular coming off as a mere "country bumpkin" or as someone for the other Leaguers to disagree with. Some fans have labeled the Justice League depiction of Batman as a "Bat-God". Some fans also feel that Timm in general dislikes Superman, perhaps because the Kryptonian's rigid morals can at times be at odds with those of his team-mates, making him the "goodie two shoes" type. Timm has countered these complaints with the simple fact that he would never devote himself to a full show based on Superman - Superman: The Animated Series - if he did not harbor significant affection for the character. Additionally, it is often noted (e.g., in the book Batman: Animated or in Modern Masters: Bruce Timm) that Timm and company very much love the Fleischer Superman shorts, which contributed greatly to the style and approach for Batman: The Animated Series.

Some fans have taken issue with the romantic interest Wonder Woman displays towards Batman in the series. Some think it is a perfect use of the opposites attract plot device, but others feel that it is forced and does not make much sense. It is worth noting that in the comic book series JLA, Batman and Wonder Woman found themselves attracted to each other, and discussed the matter, ultimately resolving to stay as friends and comrades - which happened after the Justice League animated series debuted.

Fans have also taken issue with the series depiction of the Flash/Wally West. While the third Flash has always been laid back and sardonic in the comic books, and many agree that he is well voiced by Michael Rosenbaum (Lex Luthor of Smallville, ironically), but some feel that the Flash is all too often relegated to being merely a comic relief character or "the funny one". Later episodes would allow the Flash to display more power and talent when using his super speed, and practically saves the world in the penultimate episode of the second season of JLU.

Additionally, some fans were genuinely upset that Aquaman, a founding member of the Justice League in the comic books, was not included as a regular member of the Justice League, as he had had a cameo on S:TAS similar to that of the Flash, and had been featured prominently in Superfriends.

Bat-Embargo

I took the following out:

A so-called "Bat-Embargo" was introduced at the start of the third season when the series became "Unlimited" due to the creation of The Batman (2004), which prevented Timm from using any of Batman's villains or supporting characters. This did not, however, limit Timm and company too much and allowed the development of lesser-known characters.

This is already talked about on the JLU page, and isn't really significant to the original Justice League series. If there are two articles, the differences should be respected. Simnel 01:13, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Animated Series Batman (character) sandbox

During the creation of of that "late" article I always stated that it was a draft or unproject. It took weeks until Bennon cleverly figured out what I was trying to do was a sandbox (which I didn't know how to do until now). Now everyone can edit it with no time pressure and talk about what to do with the info when i's finally finished. I coul'd have created the sandbox in my own talk page, but I don't want anyone to assume I "OWN" the project. Feel free to erase, add and source stuff to improve it.--T-man, the wise 22:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Adult-ish content

I'm in the process of watching JL for the first time, having just watched the complete Season 1 box and am now halfway through season 2. I confess to having only seen bits and pieces of the previous DC-based series (Superman and Batman) so maybe this is par-for-the-course, but is it worth noting that JL, for a kid's show, has some surprisingly adult references? For example the indication that Green Lantern and Hawkgirl become lovers, in one season 2 episode we see a woman in bed with a man, in the Metamorpho episode we see Metamorpho's girlfriend flirting with GL wearing nothing but a towel; there are occasional overt references to Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl being sexy, and in the S2 episode Maid of Honor Part One I was floored by an undeniable sexual reference (the partying princess telling Wonder Woman she wants to "go out with a bang - or several, if you get my meaning"). I'm not complaining by any means, and I know that one reason why the WB's DC animations have been so popular is because they appeal to both kids and adult viewers, but I wonder if JL marked any sort of transition. If it didn't and the earlier show's were like this, too, I'll have to check them out! 23skidoo 05:21, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

One more to add to the list (though if you're only half way through Season 2 you won't have seen it yet) is the intro to Wild Cards. I agree with your observations, however our problem is finding them published in some kind of reputable source to avoid original research. Maybe Bruce Timm talked somewhere about pushing the boundaries. The jump to cable couldn't have hurt.--Gillespee 16:05, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not surprising at all, the DCAU has always dealt with adult-ish content. The writers and producers of the show look at the DCAU alot like the comics, they hold it to the same standard. I mean have you read comics lately? People are getting fists physically punched through their head, being raped, becoming drug addicts (alot of which comics have been doing for years). Infact, I remember an interview where Bruce Timm (I think it was Bruce Timm, anyway)... stated that they hold the DCAU to the same standard as shows like Friends. Meaning that kids have been watching things like Friends and Seinfeld, and what-have-you for ages. So there's no need to tune down the DCAU. --156.34.89.13 17:16, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

• I think You are assuming the DCAU are "kids shows", when they are not made with kids in mind. Kids watch them, but they are more like shows for the adult comic book fans. Rhino131 (talk) 15:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Five seasons in four years?

The introduction seems to imply that there was five seasons in four years. Is that correct?--Per Abrahamsen 08:45, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

No, it's actually in six years (2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 AND 2006), I think you are a little bitt confused. Batman tas 17:24, 7 March 2007 (GMT+2)

Casting/character section.

I have a ton of problems with this section, so I'm just going to reprint the whole thing, as it stands today, and make points that I think need to be addressed. Overall, though, the thing that's most striking is that there are no sources whatsoever for any of the statements made. The prose is well written, but there's gotta be at least some attempt to source it.

Kevin Conroy reprised his role as the voice of Batman, a part he had played since Batman: The Animated Series(TAS) (1992-1995), The New Batman Adventures(TNBA) (1997-1999), and Batman Beyond (1999-2001). Because Justice League was set after the events of Batman: TAS and TNBA but before Beyond, Conroy pitched his voice to a range in between the voices he'd used in both series. It was harsher than the voice he spoke with in TAS but softer than in Beyond, it was similar in tone to the voice he used for TNBA. In addition, Batman's uniform was also redesigned. Much like the Beyond uniform, the pointy ears on his cowl were made much more prominent and heels were added to his boots. Also, a dark shade of violet replaced the blue highlights in the original TAS uniform.

Really? Where do we get that Controy intentionally changed the timbre of his voice?

Tim Daly, who voiced Superman in his previous animated series, did some early recordings, but was ultimately unable to reprise his role due to his involvement with the short-lived remake series of The Fugitive. He was replaced by George Newbern, who was criticized by fans during the first season, feeling that his Superman lacked both the everyman feel and heroic authority that Daly brought to the role. Bruce Timm has said that this was more the fault of himself and his staff than Newbern's, and has openly defended Newbern. Since then, many fans have agreed that Newbern improved significantly during the second season, with a consensus that both Newbern and his predecessor Daly had merits in their respective portrayals of Superman.

This is entirely unsourced and weasel worded. Who are "some fans", "many fans"? Where do we get Daly's unavailability from? If Timm was so "open" in his defense of Newbern, surely it should be easy to cite an instance of this defense.

Superman was initially redesigned to have a bit of a squint to his eyes and slight wrinkles that was also meant to make him look older, in addition to having a noticeable shining streak to his hair; he was redesigned to appear larger in physical girth than in his previous series. Fans did not like the older appearance and in the second season the streak was toned down to the point of almost disappearing and the squint was removed, in essence Superman reverted to his earlier animated series look. As an in-joke, Superman's Season One facial designs are used for an older Jor-El in the Justice League Unlimited episode For the Man Who Has Everything.

Almost certainly true, but again, nothing is sourced here. I'm a little dubious that fan wishes forced the hand of Timm and company to change their character designs, though. Timm has shown frequent ability to stand up to fans if he really felt strongly about something, as is evidenced by DVD commentaries surrounding choices made with Hawkgirl. Is it that Timm took on board fan comment, or is it just that the creative teams themselves decided that things weren't working with the original character designs? I think, somehow, it's probably a little more complicated than just "fanboys didn't like it, so we changed it".

Most of the characters retained their general comic book origins and continuity, with Wonder Woman being the notable exception. In the Justice League series continuity, the premiere story arc "Secret Origins" removing the plot of Diana's competition against her fellow Amazons to be the ambassador of peace to man's world, and she is referred to as a "rookie" superhero during her first encounter with the League. (Subsequent episodes touched on her attempts to adjust to her new world). Additionally, the character of The Flash was portrayed as somewhat younger and significantly more brash than his comic book counterpart, taking on a number of personality traits of Plastic Man, who provides a similar comic relief function in the Justice League of America comics. Major changes were also made to the Hawkgirl character. John Stewart's Green Lantern was also changed significantly from the civilian architect in the comic continuity to a hardnosed ex-marine for the show.

From here on out, the section makes no sense at all. It says that "most" characters retained their comic book roots, but then goes on to say that 4 of the characters were in fact substantially different from their comic counterparts. Since there are only 7 characters, "most" in fact were significantly different. Throw in the later claims about Martian Manhunter and the Batman/Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl/Jon Stewart romances, and, really, there was a significant attempt to forge new dramatic ground in the series. Not to mention the fact that the Martian Manhunter is the essential cause for the origin of the Justice League — something quite at variance with any comic telling. Powers basically the same? Yes. Broad brush similarities in personalities and origins? Kinda. But the details and continuing character subplots are wholly novel to this series. Substantial work needs to be done here just to make the thing accurate, much less sourced and encyclopedic

María Canals was cast as Hawkgirl based on her Hispanic accent, which the producers felt would make Hawkgirl appear more foreign and alien against her team mates. The character of Hawkgirl became romantically involved with the John Stewart Green Lantern as the series progressed, while a relationship between Batman and Wonder Woman was also hinted by the show's creators, who disliked the fans' insistence on pairing Wonder Woman with Superman.

Pretty sure that this statement about Maria Canalis is true, but it needs to be sourced.

In the comic books, the Martian Manhunter / J'onn J'onzz has a power called "Martian Vision" which has been shown both as a beam of pure force (an extension of the telekinesis that allows him to fly), and essentially the same as Superman's heat vision. Neither power was ever shown in the series, dropped presumably in favor of his phasing power, shapeshifting and telepathy. The Martian Manhunter was only referred to by that name in one episode and otherwise called simply J'onn.

Although the series itself is animated in traditional 2-dimensional style, the opening credits are rendered in 3D with toon shading.

I don't think that's entirely true. Some of the stuff, notably in "Starcrossed" is CGI, if I recall my commentary correctly. And the Watchtower exteriors themselves certainly seems like it's 3D. I think this statement is too absolute.

CzechOut ☎ | ✍ 04:31, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Many of those things are things from bonus features of the DVD sets. I know Superman's Season 1 design and Batman's redesign are mentioned and talked about. Conroy's voice is something that I don't think was specifically spelled out, it is obvious, especially when you watch an ep of B:TAS and then Justice League, you can hear the difference. Then again, I don't know if that kind of detail is necessary. Seems more like a mixture of "no duh" and "huh, interesting" like trivia. I haven't heard anything about fans reacting negatively towards Newburn in the first season, but I think the thing with Daly being unavailable is true (might have to check his page for the source). And the last point I think is okay, as long as it's just changed from "most" to "some." Anakinjmt (talk) 17:14, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

There is an error in the casting section. Metallo was voiced by Malcom McDowell not Corey Burton.Jsager75 (talk) 14:26, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

actor-character or character-actor order

Main cast is shown in Actor-character order, when Recurring characters are printed as character-actor. --194.85.161.2 (talk) 10:33, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Number of Seasons

This article says that "Justice League Unlimited" ran for THREE seasons, but the article for that show says it only has two seasons. Netflix also has only two seasons. Gatonom Nyan 22:09, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Music and theme

How can there be no music info on this article? The series has one of the best if not the best opening themes of all time. Can someone add info on who composed the theme and music for the series? Magegg (talk) 17:26, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Character page section.

While it's good to have a list of who voiced the roles, I really felt there should be another page that explains the character story arc, appearances, love interest and villains like other articles that talks about cartoon characters and the depth that makes them different or human. Don't take it the wrong way but I understand the nightmare of doing another page like a newspaper. If I have to do it, I'll have to take baby steps before burning my hands for typing so much. If anyone's reading this, have a think and give it a chance since my ideas are kind of a dud. Thanks.

Johnnyauau2000 (talk) 14:45, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Each character has an article I think and there should be in each of those article a blub about how the character is used in this storyline. More in-depth analysis of the plotlines should be done on the Young Justice Wiki on Wikia which is linked at the bottom of the article. See WP:UNDUE and WP:OR. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 07:05, 8 January 2017 (UTC)