Talk:Karelians

Language

The Karelian language is very closely related to the Finnish language, and particularly by Finnish linguists seen as a dialect of Finnish. The dialect of Karelians who are citizens of Finland is however uncontroversially considered a dialect of Finnish, since that's the standard language taught in schools. Finnish Karelians speaks however Finnish. ??????? What somebody meant here? 62.143.8.246 16:38, 9 May 2004 (UTC)

I don't know. There has still not made clear difference between Karelians and Finnish Karelians. Karelians are Karelians living mainly in Republic of Karelia. Finnish Karelians are however Finnish people like Tavastians (hämäläiset) are, or Savolax (savolaiset), or Proper Finns (varsinaissuomalaiset), or Bothnians (pohjalaiset), or uusimaalaiset. For example: President of Finland, Martti Ahtisaari, is Finn, karjalainen not Karelian.

In Finnish language there is not Karelian dialect but Southeastern dialects (kaakkoismurteet). Karelian language is different than that Southeastern dialect. Karelian language is so near to Finnish language that some linguist see it as a dialect of Finnish.

Kahkonen 19:18 9 May 2004 (UTC)

So what to do? We know, that there is two types of Karelians: Karelians who live in Finland and consider themselves Finns and Karelians who live in Republic of Karelia and consider themselves Karelians.

See link (about Finns called Karelians):

• http://www.karjalanliitto.fi/ (click link In English)

President Martti Ahtisaari's speech:

• http://www.valtioneuvosto.fi/tpk/puheet-1999/P990619.karen.html

Kahkonen 08:43 10 May 2004 (UTC)

We explain more, and state less. If you by "different types" mean that Savo people were transferred to Ladoga-Karelia, then write that with years and figures if you know. If you mean that people's mentality was influenced by the difference between being a serf or a taxed freeholder, then write that - or, maybe even better: propose wordings here if you fear that you might be misunderstood.

Although I do of course not endorse everything at the karjalan liitto site, I would like to remind you of the following prominently located statement:

Throughout recorded history, Karelia had been under the rule of either Sweden (Finland) or Russia (Novgorod), but its inhabitants were almost exclusively Finno-Ugrians. After Finland gained independence in 1917, Karelia was divided between the two states, Finland and Soviet Union.

--Johan Magnus 08:19, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I mean this, what I wrote to Tuomas in my Talk page: Do You think that other Finns and evacuated Karelians are 'different peoples'? I, and official Finland and other world, do not think. So you want to say that Karelians living in East Karelia are Finns? Or that Finns are Karelians? I think _that_ is very POV. Kahkonen 09:20 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Think of the difference between Finnic and Finns. A Karelian can be, but doesn't have to be, a Finn. While all Karelians are Finnic, only the western Karelians are Finns. Remember that we write for an intended public that may know very little or nothing. Do not assume that the reader know anything in advance, but keep in mind that some readers might, so it's important not to "disturb" such readers with statements that conflict with their understanding (unless their understanding is patently false AND unusual), which would give our text a low credibility. I hope we agree that things common for Karelians are to be mentioned first; Things different for different Karelians are to be mentioned thereafter? If you agree with official Finland, then I think this is most of all a matter of linguistics, since I don't believe to be in conflict with official Finland either. --Johan Magnus 08:51, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

I think this is same among 'Swedish-speaking Finns' Swedes or Finns. Following this logic we can talk about Swedes who live in Sweden and in Western Finland, and only they are Finns. So: "A Swede can be, but doesn't have to be, a Finn."

But, Finns and 'western' Karelians are not distinc ethnical group and nor are 'Swedish-speaking Finns' and Finns. Go look Finland's official pages and post here, if you find distinc ethnical groups of Western Karelians and Finns. There are about 300 000 such Finns and at least 1 000 000 who have Karelian parents. So post here, if you find such numbers.

About dialect and language: The dialect spoke by evacuated Finns are not same than language (or dialect) spoke by Karelians. This fact has never criticized by linguists. Only that is, if Karelian language is a distinc language or a dialect of Finnish. Kahkonen 10:02 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, borders of ethnicity and nations are to a large degree arbitrary. Hence one must keep in mind in who's interest different definitions are. In accordance with many Russian sources, you can argue that those Karelians that came under Swedish and later Finnish rule were un-Kareliïzed if not evacuated to Tver. But this is not in accordance with the usage in either Finland or the English speaking world. In English, the notion of the Fennomans and AKS has had some success, which also reflects in the Many Karelias-article at Virtual Finland.

With virtually all ethnicities you can find some kind of influence back and forth with neighbouring groups. Hence members of a certain ethnicity that become isolated from eachother can often be considered to evolve into separate ethnicities. But again, it's not easy to say when such a process is concluded.

Are the Flemish ethnically different from the Dutch? Are Norwegians ethnically different from Swedes? Are Scanians? Are Ålanders? Are Finland-Swedes? You may have convictions making you answer these question with yes or no, but that's not my point. My point is that both answers are reasonable and in most cases probable. Therefore it's good to be careful in one's wordings. Therefore I reverted your recent change here[1]. Kind regards! /Tuomas 15:16, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

So why not to add these tips into page when they are facts? Saying like "In Finland, West Karelians are considered and consider themselves Finns". This is a fact and "we only list facts" - it's NPOV, you know?

And thank you, you are saying I'm not a Finn ethnically :-) Go and say to Martti Ahtisaari he is not ethnically Finn :-) Or Kimi Räikkönen.

Kahkonen 19:23, 10 May 2004 (added some more 07:40 11 May 2004) (UTC)

What did I say? You should maybe read one time more?

By the way: You might be interested in the new page on Finns. /Tuomas 10:31, 21 May 2004 (UTC)

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Again, I want to emphasize that: "In Finnish language there is not Karelian dialect but Southeastern dialects (kaakkoismurteet)."

This is a fact, that no linguist has critisized.

"Karelian language is different than that Southeastern dialect."

This is a fact, that no linguist has critisized.

But: "Karelian language is so near to Finnish language that some linguist see it as a dialect of Finnish."

See? If not see page: (sorry, in Finnish) http://www.jns.fi/museokoulu/kokokuva/kansanperinne/karjalanmurre.html

And compare (this is not same text, but you can see differences): Karelian language:
"Enne vahnas Karjalas oli vähä peldomuadu, sendäh mešäs ajettih kaskie. Kaski ajettih keviäl, konzu jo puuloih roih täüzi lehti. Puut kuattih, karzittih. Parembat parret mendih dieloih, karumbat päittih hallokse. Tulien vuon se kaski poltettih, sit künnettih."

http://www.jns.fi/museokoulu/kokokuva/kansanperinne/kaakkoismurteet.html Southeastern dialect:
"Myö annettii sil viel yks pien pala ja lähettii juoksemaa nii kovast ku jaksettii. Mut eihä se karhu kauva sitä yhtä pallaa syönt. Se läks juoksemaa mei peräst ja sai meijät kii iha vähä matka pääs. Mei pit taas antaa sil vehnästä eikä myö ennää hirvitty lähtee juoksemaakaa ku meitä alko jo vähä hirvittää se karhu kujjeet."

http://www.internetix.ofw.fi/opinnot/opintojaksot/8kieletkirjallisuus/aidinkieli/murteet/kaakkmur.html

In English: http://www.nordiska.uu.se/ICLaVE2/ICLaVE_pdf/Markkola.pdf

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/ethno/Finl.html: FINNISH [FIN] 4,700,000 in Finland, 93.5% of population (1993); 300,000 in Sweden (1987); 12,000 in Norway (1993); 5,153 in Estonia (1993); 214,168 in USA (1970 census); 36,725 in Canada (1971 census); 6,000,000 in all countries (1995 WA). Uralic, Finno-Ugric, Finno-Permic, Finno-Cheremisic, Finno-Mordvinic, Finno-Lappic, Balto-Finnic. Dialects: SOUTHWESTERN FINNISH, HÄME (TAVAST), SOUTH POHJANMAA, CENTRAL AND NORTH POHJANMAA, PERÄPOHJA, SAVO (SAVOLAX), SOUTHEASTERN FINNISH (FINNISH KARJALA, FINNISH KARELIAN). Southeastern dialects called 'Karelian' in colloquial Finnish are distinct from true Karelian (T. Salminen). Finnish is closely related to Karelian and Olonetsian. About 300,000 are bilingual in Swedish. National language. Typology: SVO. Christian. Braille Bible. Bible 1642-1991. NT 1548-1976. Bible portions 1891-1986.

This is mentioned somehow even in Red Book: " Ingrians is not a separate language but consists of eastern Finnish dialects (the vernaculars of the Savo and southeastern dialects of Ingermanland"

http://www.kotikielenseura.fi/virittaja/hakemistot/jutut/vir98palander.html

And simply google "southeastern dialects Finnish".

And good collection of links in page http://learning.lib.vt.edu/slav/nat_ethnic_nordic.html#finland Kahkonen 20:16, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, I just added info about the south western dialects to the article, take a look and comment on that. I even added some footnotes to sites that unfortunately are in Finnish. Kahkonen, note that this article is about the language of the Karelians, not the Karelian language. -- Jniemenmaa 19:30, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I tried to add this information, but they always deleted it. You did it better, thank you. But, why there is still that stupid clause "Karelians living in Finland learn Finnish standard language in school." Of course they do! So do I and so do all Finns. /Kahkonen 7:40, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

Different groups of Karelians

The statement that "Russian Karelians" and "Finnish Karelians" are not of the same ethnic group is completely incorrect and insubstantial. Historical evidence suggests that after being divided in 1323, Karelians have kept their identity and ties until first half of 20th century on both sides of the border. Ethnographic studies performed by Finnish, Russian and European 19th century ethnographers (such as Lönnröt, Sjögren, Castren, Keoppen and others) indicate that there were no such things as "Finnish Karelians" or "Russian Karelians" from the ethnic point of view as late as the end of 19th century. What is often mistaken, by modern Finnish ethnographers, for ethnic identity is is a mere citizenship of ethnic Karelians on both sides of the border, where some are of Finnish citizenship while others are of Russian citizenship. There is one more historical aspect that has to be mentioned here which caused this artificial "ethnic" division - Karelian Independence movement in White and Olonets Karelia in 1918-1922 and the Finland-Soviet Wars that took place in the first half of the 20th century. The rhetoric that was used by some of the notable Finnish politicians (K.G.E. Mannerheim in particular) on the subject of Karelia and Karelians in the first half of the 20th century were completely abandoned and abolished in Finland after the Peace Treaty of Paris, 1947. Any mention of ethnic ties between the population of Finland and Karelians, that still lived in the Soviet Union was prohibited. The theory that there are "Finnish Karelians" and "Russian Karelians", which are ethnically different was created, however insubstantial it was. Most of the ethnic Karelians were assimilated into Finns, merely for political reasons. Finnish political leaders simply did not want to mess with the Soviet Union over the subject of Karelia any more. Hence all this nonsense about different ethnic groups of Karelians. Karjala88 (talk) 08:37, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

I suppose a different language (Karelian dialect of Finnish vs. Karelian) and religion (Lutheranism vs. Russian Orthodoxy) are inconsequential as far as ethnicities are conserned in your book? Sure, all Karelians have the same origin, but a whole lot of water has passed under the keel since those ancient times. Also, I must protest agaist the "Flag of Karelians" in the article. This flag was the flag, designed by the national romantic artist Akseli Gallen-Kallela, for the so-called Uhtua republic, more generally for East Karelia. It was used during the Finnish occupation of East Karelia by the occupants and that's about it. 84.251.161.164 (talk) 21:02, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

Let us make one point perfectly clear: The "Russian Karelians and "Finnish Karelians" are not the same ethnic group. The Russian Karelians spoke their own Karelian language (some of them still do) which was closely related to the eastern dialects of Finnish, but is neverthless a distinct language (nowadays most of the Russian Karelians speak Russian). Russian Karelians have not traditionally considered themselves to be Finns, but have cultivated their own identity instead. Attempts to obliterate the difference between two different kinds of Karelians are based either on misunderstanding and limited knowledge of Finnish history, or on some national-chauvinistic agenda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.30.179.130 (talk • contribs) 11:48, 9 March 2006

Yes. I hope that those favoring the current version of the article would write their reasons here. The current version claims that these are the same people, which is 1) not true, 2) anti-consensus (also by looking at this talk page), 3) not backed by any sources either. By the way, one has to remember also the radical population changes which occurred in the 1600s. The article in the Finnish Wikipedia is in an OK shape. --Jaakko Sivonen (talk) 14:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

updated the article according to Minahan, James (2000). One Europe, Many Nations. Greenwood Publishing Group. pp. pp. 368. ISBN 9780313309847. {{cite book}}: |pages= has extra text (help); Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help) and Language Death and Language Maintenance. John Benjamins Publishing Company. 2000. ISBN 9789027247520. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help). More work is needed of course but I hope this puts things back on track--Termer (talk) 20:30, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

"About dialect and language: The dialect spoke by evacuated Finns are not same than language (or dialect) spoke by Karelians. This fact has never criticized by linguists. Only that is, if Karelian language is a distinc language or a dialect of Finnish.Kahkonen 10:02 10 May 2004 (UTC)" Not true. About 10% of Finnish nationals evacuated from Karelia were Karelian speaking ethnic Karelians such as my family. You don't seem to be aware of our existence AkuraIchiban (talk) 23:01, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Number of the Karelians in Finland

I would like to state couple things here about Karelians in Finland. Several studies done by different ethnographers in the 19th century indicate that majority of the population that inhabited Karelian Isthmus and Ladoga Karelia, Southern and Northern Karelia of the Grand Duchy of Finland and White Karelia, Olonets Karelia in the Russian Empire were of Karelian ethnicity at that time . In different sources the ethnic subgroups were called Finns and Karelians, sometimes Finns and Finno-Karelians but there was always a distinctive ethnic separation of Finns and Karelians in those studies. Having said all that I would also like to point out that all ethnic Karelians that inhabited the provinces that belonged to the Duchy of Finland also viewed themselves as part of the Finnish nation, which did not change when Finland gained its independence in 1918. The events that took place in the Russian Karelia in 1918-1922 indicate that the majority of the Russian Karelians, though being Orthodox, desired to belong to Finland and to be part of the Finnish nation too. However due to the Antanta intervention in the White Karelia and the Soviet intervention in the Olonets Karelia it never happened. The evidence suggests that an ethnic Karelian settling in Finland gets fully assimilated into the Finnish nation within 1 generation as the difference between the nations is so small. Karjala88 (talk) 08:00, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

Some misinformed person restored a nonsensical piece of disinformation into the article. The numbers on Finnish people evacuated from the ceded territories in 1939 and 1944 simply is not the same as the number of Karelians in Finland, as Finnish Karelia was not ceded completely. Referenced information should not be restored if it is completely irrelevant. It is hardly possible to estimate the number of Finnish Karelians very exactly, as it is a diffuse sub-ethnic identity. The present-day Karelian districts in Finland have 300 000 inhabitants, but not all of them might designate themselves as Karelians - and people identifying themselves as Karelians live in all parts in Finland.--212.146.44.208 (talk) 20:17, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Please note that in case you continue editing the article according to your opinions that contradicts what the given sources say, the article is going to be listed for protection. Feel free to introduce any facts to the article according to WP:RS, any claim or opinion that is not sourced is going to be reverted and removed. Any removal or altering the sourced text is going to take the article closer to WP:RPP. thanks!--Termer (talk) 22:05, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Given sources I removed are completely mispresented, irrelevant and misleading so they cannot have any value whatsoever. That should be evident to anyone who knows anything about this matter! It is simply absurd to suggest that the number of still living evacuated persons from the ceded territories is the same as the number of Finnish Karelians. Does your source even claim that? I do not believe it does, so you are probably using the source in a way comparable to original research. The East Karelian flag is not a symbol of Finnish Karelians. And so on. You are abusing the Wikipedia rules to present misleading information based on mispresented sources.--130.234.5.136 (talk) 09:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC) Edit I checked it out: Benjamin's book does not suggest in any way that the II World War evacuees were the only Finnish Karelians. So you have misused the source, perhaps in an oversight. Besides the introductory part you restored in the article is of very poor quality, very confusing and in many respects conflicting with the rest of the article. To example, the separation between the Finnish and East Karelians is mentioned in the language part of the article; you cannot remove the information from the introductory part only.

Please see WP:RSUE, I might have to revert your edits because of it. The source you claim is completely mispresented, is available for online reading if you follow the link and everybody can verify the facts. In case you continue without presenting any sources and, adding facts like 300 000 inhabitants in present-day Finnish Karelia East Karelian flag (Note: Not a symbol of the Finnish Karelians etc. the claims that are in conflict with the given book, One Europe, Many Nations the article is going to be listed at WP:SEMI so that it would be possible to clean it up finally. thanks! --Termer (talk) 03:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Your comments are simply so misinformed that I do not know what to do about them. Unlike you suggest, my claims are in no way in conflict with the source book you present, as the source does not claim that the 140,000 war evacuees are the only Finnish Karelians or that the East Karelian flag is a symbol of the Finnish Karelians too. In other words you have misrepresented the source, and anyone can check this. It is obvious that you know next to nothing about the Karelians and presumably care even less, so why do you bother?--130.234.68.225 (talk) 10:48, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Please note that in case you choose to comment on contributors instead of the content also in the future, you comments can be simply removed from this talk page pr WP:NPA. I'm clad that you are willing to claim about your competence regarding the subject. Please do not hesitate to show it in practice by editing the article according to secondary published sources and cleaning it up by providing inline citations etc. and following the WP:STYLE. Leaving the article in current state is unacceptable and since you haven't provided any sources to your opinions and claims above regarding the flag etc, these edits of yours can be reverted to back to according to One Europe, Many Nations any time. where it clearly names the flag as the Karelian flag without any reference to "East Karelians". regarding c 140,000 Karelians living in Finland, the note always said that they were Finnish records of people born in Karelia, the areas ceded to the USSR after WWII, there is no need to duplicate that information in the infobox etc.

I'm willing to give you some time in order for you to get a chance to clean up the article. Just that in case you're going to proceed editing the article according to your opinions and without referring to any published sources printed in English, I would have to revert this article back to the way James Minahan has represented the facts in his book. So please, do not hesitate to put your claimed competence in practice.--Termer (talk) 14:04, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

James Minahan is very obviously discussing only the Orthodox East Karelians, and does not suggest in any way that the flag is connected to Lutheran Finnish Karelians. The flag should, can and will be removed from the infobox, as no source is presented for the uncorrect claim that it is a symbol of both groups of Karelians.--195.237.90.72 (talk) 14:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC) This site [2] tells of the history of the East Karelian flag. The infobox of the article is generally so confused that it is a disgrace. The introductory part is relatively good after my edits, referring to a website maintained by an institution under the Finnish Ministry of Education. Edit After reading English websites, it seems that in English the ethnonym Karelians refer mainly to the (Orthodox) East Karelians, and does not generally include the concept of (Lutheran) Finnish Karelians. It would be advisable to reduce this article to discuss only the East Karelians and take the information of the Finnish Karelians to separate articles discussing the Karelian provinces of Finland. (Finnish Karelians are not an ethnic group, but rather a regional group included in the Finnish ethnicity).--195.237.90.72 (talk) 14:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, in case you think it's better now, why did you tag your own edits with the neutrality disputed tag? regarding Minahan, he clearly describes the flag as Karelian without any reference to Orthodox or Lutherianism. In case you say that the Finnish Karelians think of themselves as a sub-group of Finnish people, how would be that relevant to the article here? Everything about Finnish sub-groups should go into the article about Finnish people.--Termer (talk) 14:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality tag was a protest against some of your edits, such as the presentation of the East Karelian flag as a symbol of all Karelians. Read the Minahan's text carefully, and you will see that he is very obviously discussing only the non-Finnish Karelians belonging to the distinct Karelian ethnicity - in other words, the Orthodox East Karelians. (Minahan mentions that some Karelians live in Finland too. It is easy to see what he is referring to: Before 1939 and 1944, there were 55 000 Karelian-speaking Orthodox Karelians in Finland too, but after the evacuation they have been linguistically assimilated in the Finnish population). Information of the identity of the Finnish Karelians is extremely essential, necessary and relevant here as long as both of the distinct groups of Karelians are discussed in a same article (which is perhaps unwise). It is very significant that the Finnish Karelians do not share the same ethnic or national identity with East Karelians, despite of the often expressed feeling of being closely related with them. I cannot understand why you want to obscure this issue.--195.237.90.72 (talk) 15:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

So it has become be obvious that this article should be mostly about the east Karelians and the Finnish Karelians should be a part of Finnish people as the subgroup. The article can briefly mention the historic relationship but should have a note on top of the article saying that

For information about Finish Karelians, see Finnish people.

. The article Finnish people should have a clear section Finnish Karelians that should have a note, for inf about Eastern Karelians see Karelians. Do you want to take care of it so that the mess could be cleaned up?--Termer (talk) 15:32, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Or, we can make Karelians into a disamb page that says Karelians may refer to Finnish Karelians see Finnish people and Eastern Karelians, see Eastern Karelians or whatever is the most common name for Orthodox Karelians used in English.--Termer (talk) 15:38, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

And this can happened of course as long as there is a source printed in English that represents the facts this way. Since WP is not dealing with people's personal identities, either someone identifies him/herself as a sub-Finn Karelian, Karelian in general or an Eastern-Karelian should not be an issue on WP.--Termer (talk) 15:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

References

About 10% or so of the 400 000 or so evacuated were ethnic Karelians. So not all Finnish Karelians are part of the same "tribe". They share history with each other but you can't deny the effects of centuries of assimilation. I am an ethnic Karelian and I support the "two Karelians" concept. AkuraIchiban (talk) 23:06, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Errors

I do not bother to read trough the whole article and the whole discussion just now but the following passage is clearly incorrect and erraneous:

"in Finland, Finnish Karelians traditionally live in the regions of Savonia and Northern and Southern Karelia. As Finland had to cede parts of Karelia to the Soviet Union in World War II, evacuated Finnish Karelians settled also elsewhere in Finland. They traditionally speak Karelian. However owing to Karelian not being recognized as its own language by the Finnish government until recently, most Karelians had no choice but to learn Finnish and now speak mostly Finnish Karelian dialect. "

How the things are in reality is explained here (in Finnish) by a reliable, neutral source: [3]. That is: 1) people living in Savonia are not regarded as Karelian neither by themselves or anyone else. They are Savonians. And they also do not speak karelian language but instead the Savonian dialects of Finnish. 2) Most people living in the regions of South Karelia region in Finland and the Northern Karelia region in Finland do not and have not spoken karelian language in the 19th an d 20the century. Instead, they have, at least in 19th and 20th century spoken the Eastern Finnish dialects, and of those the southeast Finnish dialects in southern Carelia and Savonian dialects in Northern Karelia. In 16th century or so, Karelian langue was still spoken in nothern Karelia but then there was some migration in and out and Savonian dialects spread there. In the areas ceded to Soviet union after World war two, the southeastern dialects of Finnish language were spoken in the western parts of the area and Karelian language was spoken in the eastern part of the area. Also, the southeastern dialects of Finnish were spoken in Ingria, where also ingrian language and votic language were spoken. And so, those from the western parts of the ceded areas have been speaking the southeastern dialects of Fiinish language all the time at least trough the 19th and 20th centuries as well before the WW2 and after that. Those from the eastern parts spoke karelian language. I myself am not speaker of either Karelian language or the southeastern dialects of finnish, so I do not have any personal interest on this, and as far as I understand, in Finland there is no controversy about the facts told in the source I gave. The position of Karelian language in Finland has been recognized only recently, as was told in the text, but not all the inhabitants of the ceded areas spoke karelian languge, but, instead, in the western part of the area southeastern dialects of Finnish were spoken. And all this, as far as I can understand, is not matter of opiniin but, on the contrary, widely held and undisputed facts.--Urjanhai (talk) 10:06, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

And so, the main issue to my opinion is not the neutrality but just misconseptions and misunderstandings abnout the basic facts on which there is no controvesrsy (at least with the passage cited).--Urjanhai (talk) 10:11, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

just now I did not have time to rewrite the introduction. In the source I gave above there is all information that is needed. --Urjanhai (talk) 11:09, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

In the chapter "Language" there was a template about relying on single source. This, however, was not the main problem, as the source given is reliable and undisputed (in fact the same I gave above), but, instead, the text in the chapter written with reference to the source was written for the gratest part against the source given and the interpretations and claims made in text could not be found in the source at all. So I rewrote the whole chapter according to the actual source. Also the arhcive link was totally needless because the resource had been there all the time, only the url had slightly changed.--Urjanhai (talk) 11:07, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I tried to fix some of the issues brought up by Urjanhai above in the first section of the article. However, it would be good if somebody with better sources could check it and possibly phrase it better. The fact is that this article has MASSIVE issues. There is even a picture of a woman from Jääski on there; Jääski which was populated by Finnish Karelians, not the Karelians this article is about. It would be better if English Wikipedia did the same thing as Finnish and Russian Wikipedias, and had two different articles, one for these Karelian-speaking Karelians this article is about, and another one for Finnish Karelians. fi:Karjalaiset (kansa) and ru:Карелы are equivalents to this article, whereas fi:Karjalaiset and ru:Карелы (субэтнос финнов) are about Finnish Karelians. --Vilutar (talk) 18:19, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 18 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved - Apart from the nomination there is one !vote in favour. For those against moving there is one !vote against. Were it simply numerical I might relist or call this a straight no-consensus. However AjaxSmack has raised very strong reasons, based in established guidelines, for not carrying out the proposed move. Particularly WP:ONEOTHER means there is no point in the proposed disambiguation page and WP:PRECISION also casts doubt on it. I see nothing that rebuts these points, but if you wish to discuss this further come and find me on my talk page.(non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 12:33, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

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Karelians → Karelians (ethnic group) – On the page Talk:Karelia (historical province of Finland)#Splitting proposal multiple users came to the conclusion that "Karelians" page should probably be made into a disambiguation page. This disambiguation page would have links to two articles, one being this and the other being about Finnish Karelians (named Karelians (Finns) or something along those lines). Latter which does not exist yet but would be split from Karelia (historical province of Finland). There was a little bit of conversation about what these two articles should be named. I made the suggestion of naming them Karelians (ethnic group) and Karelians (Finns) in the same spirit as we have articles Macedonians (ethnic group) and Macedonians (Greeks). Nobody has objected so I'm bringing the conversation over to this article. Vilutar (talk) 16:04, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

In this very discussion page I see the subject of the differentiation of Karelians to be controversial. Maybe it's just a couple of editors but it could be a "real world" controversy. I'd try to be sure of that first (not saying you aren't, just saying I'm not and I prefer not to vote about it without knowing that point).

If Karelians are mostly considered two different ethnic groups and only fringe groups or individuals find that controversial, then the choice is obvious: split the Karelia article, create the Finnish Karelian one and the disambiguation, and move this one. If the controversy is real and there are enough people and/or groups that believe Karelians are a single group, then I believe they should be in a single article that covers the controversy.

Just a little extra detail: I consistently see the use of the word "Finn" as an ethnic/"nation-state creation"/XIX century nationalism term, while the term "Finnish" is used as an administrative/current country/citizenship term. Maybe my interpretation of the terms is wrong, but if that's how they are used and I understand the Karelian topic properly, then these Karelians wouldn't be "Karelian Finns" but "Finnish Karelians" (as they are actually referred to in this very article, by the way). --Metalpotato - ✉ 16:37, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

As far as I know, Finns and Finnish are synonyms. We have the Finns page on this very Wikipedia starting with "Finns or Finnish people".

Both Finnish and Russian Wikipedias (aka places where I'd expect people to have the most issue about these concepts) have different articles for both (fi:Karjalaiset, fi:Karjalaiset (kansa), ru:Карелы (субэтнос финнов), ru:Карелы). What is usually understood to traditionally differentiate Karelians as a people and Karelians as a sub-group of Finns is that the former speak the Karelian language and are Orthodox Christians while the latter speak Finnish and are Lutheran Christians. The former also feel they are their own nation and the latter identify themselves as one of the sub-groups of Finns (among others like Tavastians, Savonians, etc). That is the situation simplified, of course. As for "real world" controversies, from what I've seen nowadays it's mostly about ethnic-group-Karelians not liking it if they are called Finns/Finnish, while Finnish Karelians feeling that their identity is strongly tied to being Finnish. --Vilutar (talk) 17:46, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

All that seems legit, you've solved my concerns. You have my vote and will see the same things happen in the Spanish Wikipedia (where I usually am one of the editors that works in the articles related to Finland).

By the way, the whole Finn/Finnish thing looks like a bias on my side: we do have that differentiation in my first language (Spanish, where we use "finés" for things related to the Finn people and "finlandés" for things related to Finland, although people make mistakes with the words sometimes). For example, the Finnish Language is called "idioma finés" in Spanish, and "idioma finlandés" is discouraged as wrong, because all the languages of Finland (Finnish, Swedish, Sámi, Karelian, etc) are "idiomas finlandeses" ("languages of Finland"). The same happens with people: someone of, for example, Swedish ethnic background who is a citizen of Finland is a "finlandés" but not a "finés", while someone of Finnish ethnic background who is a citizen of the USA is a "finés" but not a "finlandés". Looks like I was biased towards seeing the same differences happen in English, that's the reason I mentioned them in here, sorry for that. --Metalpotato - ✉ 18:26, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

That makes sense. Swedish has the same thing between "finnar" and "finländare", while in Finnish there is no differentiation. Sometimes it would be very useful to have that differentiation though. Vilutar (talk) 19:08, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

When I learnt of the proper use of the words in Spanish I started seeing they were not used consistently in the Spanish Wikipedia, so I started a "campaign" to change them all using Replacer, but since I wanted to be really sure and have some arguments in case someone was against my edits once I started fixing them (it didn't happen lol), I reasearched it for a little while first.

When researching, I recall reading somewhere that in the Finnish language the difference doesn't exist (I remember even the word "suomalainen" because I loved the way it sounds), and we have that difference between both words because of either Swedish or German influence, I don't remember which exactly, but in case it came from German, it would make sense they "copied" it from Swedish first, if we look at the history of Finland and the geography involved.

Now I wonder if English did, too, use initailly Finn and Finnish as two different concepts because of Swedish or any other language influence and then started forgetting it as we did, until the terms became interchangeable; or there is another reason for the terms in English to be synonims... God, I love languages, they are amazing! --Metalpotato - ✉ 01:24, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Not sure if English had any divisions, they have words like Swede/Swedish, Dane/Danish and I've only ever seen those as synonyms as well. I do share your love for languages hahah

Btw, I just noticed there is an article called Karelian which is a disambiguation page. How do you think it should be handled, if this page is moved to "Karelians (ethnic group)", would "Karelians" be made to redirect to "Karelian" then? Not sure if there's point in having 2 different disamb pages for "Karelian" and "Karelians". Vilutar (talk) 10:14, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, as happens with other similar cases like indians. --Metalpotato - ✉ 13:09, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Nice, thanks for the insight. If there are no more participants in this convo, I'll take care of it next week. Vilutar (talk) 19:10, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:ONEOTHER (a disambiguation page is not needed for only two articles) and nb WP:1OTHERPRIMARY. (I'll add a DAB hatnote now.) In addition, both groups are ethnic groups, so the proposed title violates WP:PRECISION. —  AjaxSmack  04:14, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

why is this "national karelian flag" everywhere on english wiki?

its not there neither in Finnish or Russian, nor i can find any other ethnicity article that would have their own flag in the infobox (probably because i didnt look too hard for it), same goes for the area article (Karelia) . Welso (talk) 09:20, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Are you talking about this flag?

This is the flag of the short-lived Republic of Uhtua, which is considered the first national state of the Karelians until it was liquidated during the [[Russian Civil War]. Since the national movement of Karelians, this flag has been considered the national flag.

And yes, the national flags of other ethnicities are also available in infoboxes, for example, like the Circassians or Evenks. Modun (talk) 11:47, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

republic of Uhtua only existed on paper, the flag was rarely used by anyone besides the Irish-Karelian regiment I think. (See https://voinitsa.ru/pages/art261.aspx ) Again, its all subjective but if you would have went to Karelia and asked a random ethnic Karel of their flag, they would have just "покрутили пальцем у виска", of course if you dont get lucky enough to meet this guy: https://www.twitch.tv/uebermarginal/v/1870981001?sr=a , but again they are just the town's crazymen. Welso (talk) 12:38, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

either way its just a bad idea to hang a flag on an ethnic group, or to hang an ethnic group on a flag. Welso (talk) 12:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, in general, it's just a historical fact of how this flag appeared. Secondly, it was the Karelians themselves who chose this flag as the basis, so it would be unlikely that they would “покрутили пальцем у виска”. No one forcibly imposed it on the Karelians, so it's not up to us to decide. Modun (talk) 12:48, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

i am talking about not some karelian nationalist groups, but the ethnicity overall. Hanging this flag over all of the ethnic karelians and not just the nationalists is like hanging the soviet flag over all ethnic russians. I didnt hear of no vote for karelians to show up and decide that it is their flag, did you? Welso (talk) 12:52, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

well, in general, the Karelians themselves use it as widely as possible as their own flag (despite the fact that there are not so many Karelians left because of not identifying themselves as Karelians in the census). By the way, many Russians also use the Soviet flag as their own. But this is a separate issue. Modun (talk) 13:08, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

And what flag do you propose as the Karelian national flag? The flag of the Karelian Republic in this capacity is not suitable, if only because it is just the flag of one of the subjects of the Federation. In a row, would the Tver Karelians use it Modun (talk) 13:55, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I do not dare to propose a new flag for Karelians — I just think, and again, thats just a subjective view of mine, that the flag should be replaced with the map of where the Karelians live, thats it. Welso (talk) 15:44, 18 July 2023 (UTC)