Talk:Maurice Ravel

Leading notes

Quote: "As a result, there are few leading notes in his output." This is referenced, but via a paywall, and its meaning is unclear. Does it really mean that he wrote mostly using only the first six notes of the diatonic scale? Surely inconceivable, so what does it mean? Imaginatorium (talk) Imaginatorium (talk) 14:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Imaginatorium, So sorry: I failed to spot this addition until now. The Grove article starts "The seventh Degree of the major, harmonic minor, or ascending melodic minor scale, so called because it lies a semitone below the tonic and therefore has a strong tendency to lead up to it." I haven't got Taruskin's book to hand any more. Tim riley talk 17:45, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Later: This is from here: "His themes are frequently modal instead of using the familiar major or minor scales. As a result, there are few leading notes in his output. Chords of the ninth and eleventh and unresolved appoggiaturas, such as those in the Valses nobles et sentimentales, are characteristic of Ravel’s harmonic language". Tim riley talk 18:23, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. I later worked out what was meant: I learnt the "leading note" as the name for the seventh note of the scale, without any explicit explanation that this excludes a flattened seventh. I do not think the text is very lucid - it would be much clearer to say something like "a penchant for flattened sevenths", or show an example perhaps. Personally I think articles should be aimed at the non-specialist reader who wants to know about the subject and should therefore avoid jargon (however "precise") as far as possible. Imaginatorium (talk) 18:53, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Entirely concur about target readership. Shall ponder a modest redraft. Tim riley talk 19:10, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Done. Tim riley talk 16:17, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Section titles

@Tim riley, I changed the titles of the sections because I thought that, if a section must use the full name "First World War", it ought to be the section which actually refers to the time period, rather than the previous time period ("1910 to First World War). I don't know, it just looked a bit funny to me, not a big deal. IntGrah (talk) 18:37, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for that courteous and gracious explanation. I'm inclined to stick with the agreed FA text, but I shan't press the point. Tim riley talk 18:57, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Students

Certainly Vaughan Williams is his most notable student (of few), but Tailleferre is certainly a well-established composer, and would make sense to mention. For the reader's benefit, I'm wondering if we should link to List of music students by teacher: R to S#Maurice Ravel somehow; or perhaps simply supply a brief list of the six other students at the end of the teaching paragraph. Aza24 (talk) 21:43, 26 July 2024 (UTC)

But is Tailleferre a well-established composer? Can you off the top of your head name one of her compositions? I can't. (As for Rosenthal it baffles me how a pupil of the fastidious Ravel could perpetrate the brash and vulgar Gaîté Parisienne.) Be that as it may, what about a footnote in the Ravel article listing the other six pupils, perhaps at first mention of RVW? I'd have to be careful to phrase it so that it does not purport to be an exhaustive list. Nichols (2011) mentions a Mlle Goldenstein, and Larner mentions a Henriette Faure (accentless so presumably no relation to Gabriel). Tim riley talk 09:20, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Tim! You must listen to her masterful Ballade for piano and orchestra—it is at various times breathtaking, grotesque and subtle, but never passionless; in my mind, this apparent disjointedness is part of the appeal. The only other work of hers I know is an Arabesque for clarinet and piano, which is well known as far a clarinet-piano music goes (which is admittedly not very far).

Thank you. Off to listen to it now, Tim riley talk 18:55, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Hmm. Pleasant but doesn't linger in my ear. Glad to have heard it, though, so thank you. Tim riley talk 19:23, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

A footnote seems more than suitable. Indeed I must have thought the Rosenthal in question was the better-known Moriz, but I suppose he'll have to suffice being only a student of Liszt (and Hanslick, strangely). Aza24 (talk) 18:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

You're doing it again! I've never heard of Moriz. Working with you is most enjoyable but doesn't half show up my ignorance. I'll cook up a footnote and rehearse it here before posting it. (Yes, odd to be a pupil of both Liszt and Hanslick.) Tim riley talk 18:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

How about this as a footnote at the end of "The best-known composer who studied with Ravel was probably Ralph Vaughan Williams, who was his pupil for three months in 1907–08"

Ravel's other students were principally Maurice Delage, Alexis Roland-Manuel and Manuel Rosenthal whom together with Vaughan Williams he dubbed his "School of Montfort",(ref>Orenstein (1991), p. 112</ref> Others who took some lessons with him included the trombonist Leo Arnaud,(ref>Laplace, Michel. "Vauchant(-Arnaud), Léo", Grove Music Online, Oxford University Press. 2003 (subscription required)</ref>, the pianist Vlado Perlemuter,(ref>Orenstein (1991), p. 93</ref> and the composer Germaine Tailleferre.(ref>Griffiths, Paul, and Anthony Burton. "Tailleferre, Germaine (Marcelle)", The Oxford Companion to Music, Oxford University Press, 2011(subscription required)</ref>

Thoughts, please, and kindly refrain from exposing my ignorance yet again. Tim riley talk 18:08, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Looks good! I do notice that the Arnaud and Tailleferre citations format the punctuation before their date differently. Aza24 (talk) 18:12, 28 July 2024 (UTC)

Quite. Right hand bandaged after an operation so am a bit hamfisted. Have added the tweaked footnote. Tim riley talk 19:37, 28 July 2024 (UTC)