Talk:Tiye

Picture of "Mummy" Inappropriate

I find it of questionable value to display a picture of the corpse of this historical figure; I think the picture should be removed. It is available on the internet if someone wants to see it, but is seems disrespectful to have a picture of her mummified body, that was ritualistically laid to rest as per her wishes at the time of her death, just to be exhumed by a Belgium thousands of years later and now it is casually on display on the internet. Pearl2525 (talk) 02:40, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Tiy/Tiye/Tyi

My modern Egyptology books use either Tiy or Tiye for the transliteration. Tyi is not used in any modern books I looked at. We currently have her Tiy, but in the few I looked at, Tiye is more common, so if people want to switch her to Tiye, that's OK with me. Noel 15:37, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Alco common in other languages its Y=J. The name as Teje, Tija, Tuja are also common. Bynk--195.91.29.124 (talk) 08:38, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Israelite descent

Should someone fix the paragraph which states Tiye to be apart of the royal egyptian bloodline when in fact she was of israelite descent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Jthomasc (talk • contribs)

Well, the two aren't contradictory. Her royal descent is supposed to have come through her mother and her "Israelite" descent is supposed to come through her father. But since there is zero evidence for the latter I don't think it should be included. Mr. Osman's speculations are not widely accepted. Paul B 22:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

^I agree, it's all speculation and the question wasn't of her, it was about her father, Yuya. Her mother was Egyptian and descendant from Ahmose-Nefertari, so she was a part of the royal line descendant from the first queen of the 18th Dynasty.Taharqa 18:08, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Ethnicity

With this article reading as it does, with the statue of Tiye appearing as it does and King Tut's image on his painted box appearing as it does, I would think that it brings into great clarity the ethnicity of Akenaton and Egyptians at large. Tom 13:00, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Really, Tom? It's made of unpainted yew heartwood. It's just the colour of the wood. Paul B 13:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Paul, haven't talked to you in a while. Re-read this sentence from the main page: Also, in the past, when the Gurob head of Tiye was discovered at Medinet Gurob (as seen on the image on the right), the skin color of the statuette was presumed to be the real skin color of the queen. Also take a close up look at Tiye's image on this page link and you will see that's it's painted right down to the eyes. You will also notice underlying discolorations in the wood discerning her face and forhead. www.homestead.com/wysinger/tiye5.html Tom 10/29/07

I have seen the original sculpture and read the detailed museum catalogue. I don't need some dumb website thank you. I know perfectly well that it's the colour of the wood. Only highlights like eyebrows are painted. Paul B 14:29, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I removed the completely uncited sentence about skin colour. It's as meaningless as presuming that ivory sculptures represent "the real skin colour". Paul B 14:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I have also seen the yew-wood head in person, and the assumption is that the original head was gilded, much like the secondary pic on the article (which I took and added to Wikimedia Commons) of Tiye's fragmentary gilded mummy case face. While it is not currently being used, this picture I took actually provides enough detail that you can actually see some of the gilding on the forehead of the sculpture. The sculpture has something of a checkered past, in that the head and the headdress were separated and not displayed together until recently. The gilding remaining on the headdress is evident, and I gather it has been handled better over the years than the head (if I remember right it was held in another museum and mostly kept in storage during the East/West German split). Am pretty sure I can come up with a couple of print references to back that assertion up. If my memory is right will post the reference to that if/when I find them. Captmondo 14:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

That would certainly be useful. Paul B 15:12, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

If I remember rightly the headdress was once covered with blue tiles, of which a few still remain on the back. Paul B 15:48, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Paul Captmondo's image comes from the same source that mine does, only you call mine dumb and not his. They are both from the Berlin Museum. Whether the head and headress were seperated or not is irrelevant to my point. The lower image of Tiye on the dumb site (located in the Cairo Museum) was excavated by Petrie himself who clearly claimed that the Nubians were the rightful heirs to the 18th Dynasty in which she was a queen of Egyptian birth. So it is not odd that she would appear as a black woman, or Akenaton as a black man, or King Tut as a black man on a painted box that you presented to Wikipedia. The genetic Nubian influence in their lineage is evident in both their appearance and experience. I'm having trouble getting the four tildes to work. Could you help me with that? Tom 10/29/07

The image isn't dumb, except in the literal sense. The website is. And that's what I said. I've no idea what point you are trying to make about Petrie, or what the Nubians being the "rightful heirs of the 18th dynasty" means. The easiest way to add four tildes is to click on the icon with the squiggle that appears above the box when you edit: the one roughly in the middle between the red circle and minus sign. The "painted box" you refer to shows Tut smiting Nubians on one side and Asiatics on the other. He appears darker than the latter and lighter than the former, which is consistent with standard New Kingdom visual conventions for depicting different peoples. Paul B 16:30, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Paul I'm lighter than the Nubians and Darker than the Asians and I have no doubt (and you have no doubt) of what ethnic you would consider me if you were to lay eyes on me. If you think the website dumb, then dispute anything therin and let's address it. My quest is the same broken record. To prove that ancient Egyptian Royalty was riddled with black people that had a significant influence on not only Egypt but the ancient world at large. To also thwart the hateful things that are said in response to this quest through sourced and respected non-black archeologists, historians and archeological findings. It is an intellectual compliment when I'm attached personally or called dumb with no attack on the factual content of what I've presented. When the content of my submissions are ignored and I'm only attacked personally and hatefully, I know that I'm on the right track. So the insults become sweet. You are one of the few wikipedians that I actually respect. But you're wrong about the website being dumb. It didn't work again. Do I need to set up my account again or something? Tom 10/29/07

Tom, I've no idea why you have to go on and on and on about this on page after page. Modern USA based characterisations of the concepts of 'black' and 'white' identity are largely irrelevant to the ancient world. The fact that someone in the USA identifies as 'black' even if they have ¾ European and only ¼ African identity is an accident of cultural history. It could easily have been the other way round. That's because of the particular population-history of the USA and the legacy of race-based slavery preoccupied with degree of racial 'mixture' between people who originated in completely separate geographical locations but were thrown together. There are lots of Europeans with darker skin than some Americans who consider thmselves to be 'black', but they are not 'mixed' in this specific sense, they just have dusky skin. Of course the vast majority of the population of the world is neither 'black' nor 'white' according to this absurd US-centric model. Egyptians thought in terms of different models of ethno-racial distinctions, based on their view of themselves as the central people of the world. Skin pigmentation in imagery such as Tut's box reflects this. What we must avoid is imposing irrelevant categories onto ancient people and distorting evidence - as with the Tiye sculpture - to do so. Paul B 00:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your problem is. Do you actually have a user identity? If so, what is it? You need a password and you need to log on. If you don't the signature will just be an IP number. --Paul B 00:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Was only able to find a single reference with regard to the fabrication of the statue itself. Apparently the thinking is that the forehead was gilded (where some gilt can still be seen), and that originally the colour of the wood was much lighter, and has darkened over time. "The color of the yewwood gave the face a bright orange hue", is the direct quote from the English version of Berlin's Egyptian Museum "Masterpieces" catalog (Wildung, Dietrich. Egyptian Art in Berlin: Masterpieces in the Bodemuseum and in Charlottenburg. Verlag Philipp von Zaber. p.22. 1996. ISBN 3-8053-1631-3)

Am not going to comment on the tone of the discussion going on here, though you may both be interested in the lively/heated discussion going on at Talk:Race_of_ancient_Egyptians. Peace. Captmondo 01:01, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Yew wood always darkens dramatically over time. I was looking at an example of an ancient yew sculpture in Dublin last year, and it has become almost completely black. Of course the sculpture is made from the heartwood, which is naturally darker than the pale yellowish sapwood. Still, 'orange' seems an inappropriate term. Paul B 08:00, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Just have to chime in here:

As soon as I saw this sculpture I knew it was of a woman we would all class as black. It has nothing to do with the colour of wood used to carve it (though, it simply adds to it) - The wood could have been like a mid-oak colour (what we call black these days actually comes in many shades)and I'd still see a black woman - and not because of the way I perceive what a person of colour should look like, as I know people of colour don't all look the same, but throughout my life, I have seen enough black people /people of colour faces to know what I'm talking about. That includes many of the kings and queens statues that I've observed right throughout the pharaonic / dynastic period; whether in museums or still photos, etc. I can't help what my eyes see, and I can bet any of you, that, if people that looked like many of above mentioned where living in America during a ugly time in that history, they'd have either been used as slaves, hung from trees - and at a later date - only allowed to use "Black / Negro / Coloured Only" premises / utilities, etc. And we all know it!

The point is this Paul. It is said here in Wikipedia and many literary works that the Nubians were only slaves in Egypt and considered by the Egyptians to be inferior. This couldn't be farther from the truth ethnically. I agree that the Egyptians did not see race as we do today. I am helping to prove that point by pointing out the vast amount of Nubian royalty that runs through every dynasty of early pre Greco/Roman Egypt. This is important because you have seen the fierce resistence to this truth on everypage that I've commented on. You're the only one that ever hinted that I might be telling any semblence of truth. I'm labled an Afrocentric if I submit any proof that Nubians were anything but sub-servient to the supposedly caucasoid Egyptians. The way to shut me up is for people to admit that the Egyptians and Nubians were intermingled genectically as all evidence shows and separated moreso geographically than ethnically. The Nubians and Egyptians fought side by side against the Hyksos and the Assyrians. Not as master and slave, but as brothers. When Nubia and Egypt were at war with each other, brothers were at war. There were Egyptians enslaved and captured by Nubians as well as the alternative. When the Nubian King Taharqa sat on the throne of Egypt it was the Assyrians that were the enemy of all Egypt. Nubia's pyramids predate Egypt's. The Nubian Medjays protected Egypt for more than a thousand years. I wish that everyone believed as you believe, that Egypt knew no racial lines. Unfortunately there are many who don't and are willing to omit huge amounts of history to retain their point of view. My task is to accurately enlighten them to help keep down the bull. Using modern terms, the slavery of blacks by whites is a very brief time in history compared to history itself. Even slaves in America should be more accurately labled as the offspring of prisoners of war between warring African tribes that delivered their brothers in chains to the Europeons. Tom 10/29/07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.133.108.59 (talk) 02:11, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything here on this page which says Nubians were always slaves. If you see that somewhere, change it, or argue on the talk page that it should be changed. But stick to what is relevant to the actual article. I'm not aware of any evidence that Nubia's pyramids predate Egypt's. Most Nubian pyramids are very late. You can discuss that on the Pyramid, Egyptian pyramid and Nubia pages. Paul B 08:06, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Here's the link for the archaeological report on "The Lost Pharoahs of Nubia" www.homestead.com/wysinger/menes2.pdf I will also include it in the Nubia article. Tom 10/30/07

The article is part of a debate about the Pre-Dynastic period, particularly about the role of early Nubian kingship in helping to fashion the model for Pharaonic monarchy in Egypt. It says nothing about pyramids. Paul B 13:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

My apologies, Nubian Society predates the Egyptian Dynastic period. Tom 10/30/07

None of the three images posted resemble each other. Tiye could not have had three faces. Frank 03/19/13132.216.45.132 (talk) 17:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Paul. The Nubian society didn't predate Egypt. Egyptian and Nubian certainly never saw themselves as brothers. Wars between these two civilisations were frequent. The XXVth dynasty never gained popularity in Egypt. Later after the Nubian occupation, Egyptian will destroy every piece of statue erected by the Nubian dynasty. Not really a prove of "bromance" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A03F:5018:7100:6908:292B:C9AB:F531 (talk) 17:54, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

Could someone get a copy of one of the papers used as a resource here?

Particularly this one: "In Praise of Black Women", Simone Schwarz-Bart, The University of Wisconsin Press, 2001

The claims it's being used to support seem very dubious, so I'd like to see the source, please. Irbisgreif (talk) 21:16, 17 September 2009 (UTC)