Talk:Ketone bodies

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Definition

This page does not contain the following words: "sugar", "saccharide", "ketose". Why? Is ketone body just another word for a ketose? I understand ketone bodies are sugars; they are monosaccharides. ("Ketone" is a functional group, NOT a molecule. "Ketone body" is a very strange name. If it means ketose, I'd like to know that alternative nomenclature.). I propose to add a new section called "Nomenclature" which could also address the reason they're called "bodies". A textbook I just read explains this is a historical artifact -- it was used for things that are insoluble in water. But now we know ketoses are soluble in water... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theredsprite (talk • contribs) 01:30, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WHAT IS THE MEANING OF KETONE?

"Ketone" is a term from organic chemistry. It is a functional group composed of a carbon-oxygen double bond attached to two R groups. Acetone is the simplest molecule containing a ketone; in it, its two R groups are methyls. Hope that helps, David Iberri (talk) 19:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The nomenclature is really confusing. "Ketone bodies" is a term that was probably originated by clinical chemists, and is very useful in the context of physiological chemistry. An organic chemist would call acetone a ketone, beta-hydroxybutyrate a beta-hydroxyacid, and beta-ketoacetate a beta-ketoacid. Biochemists also use the terms "acetoacetate" and "acetoacetic acid" interchangeably when the ionic form is not important to the disucssion.

Mroseman4 (talk) 22:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

the nomenclature is "really confusing" because of the redundant jargon phrase "ketone bodies". The chemicals being discussed are ketones that are involved in human (mammalian ?) biochemistry. That they are found in humans is obvious from the context and does not need the addition of "bodies" any more than "fatty acid bodies" or "sugar bodies. 94.196.123.128 (talk) 10:11, 28 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Ketone bodies" is the scientific term used regularly in the scientifici literature. See this link, for many examples. If you wish to change the article to avoid using this term, please get consensus to do so first. ChemNerd (talk) 12:11, 3 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say it wasn't popular(wildly so, with some people) just that it was an un"scientifici" and redundant habit. This claim isn't invalidated by showing how popular it is but by proving it adds "scientifici" value to ketone(that it doesn't add to any other chemical structure) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.196.226.111 (talk) 20:11, 7 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Merge from Beta-hydroxybutyrate

The article currently at Beta-hydroxybutyrate is really about ketone bodies in general and has nothing specifically about Beta-hydroxybutyrate. It should therefore be merged into this article. --Ed (Edgar181) 20:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The material currently at Beta-hydroxybutyrate is definitely redundant with ketone bodies. However, separate articles on the acetone & acetoacetate are able to exist independently of the article on "ketone bodies". This indicates to me that enough material might exist for Beta-hydroxybutyrate to stand on its own. --Uthbrian (talk) 01:02, 18 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Long Thin Axon!

I added a cn template to The brain retains some need for glucose, because ketone bodies can be broken down for energy only in the mitochondria, and brain cells' long thin axons are too far from mitochondria. because it doesn't specify what exactly is going on at the other end of the long thin axon that changes glucose into energy without mitochondria in a manner that makes it superior to intercellular propagation of ATP from the mitochondria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zaphraud (talk • contribs) 22:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reference, please. I never heard of this; it is not in any biochemistry text I have.

Mroseman4 (talk) 22:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since no citation has been added for a year, I think we can get rid of this statement. 203.57.223.25 (talk) 05:01, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"-ate(-oate-"esters")" is not the same thing as "-ic acid(-oic acid-"carboxylic acids")"

This article refers to the molecule name "acetoacetate" as a synonym for "acetoacetic acid" (similar treatment for ß-hydroxybutyrate). It's not. Acetoacetate is not acidic. Acetoacetate is the 'conjugate base' of acetic acid and does not contribute to acidosis. If, for example, a quantity of sodium acetoacetate was introduced into the body, it would result in a 'higher' pH. It's perhaps a small distinction, but in the interest of being encyclopedic... 151.151.73.168 (talk) 03:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any studies of the effect on intelligence?

I'm wondering if switching from glucose to ketones has any effect on the brain's efficiency -- i.e., on a person's intelligence. Have any studies been done? --Geoff Canyon (talk) 21:47, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Effects on Heart

The article on Acetyl-CoA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetyl-CoA) states that "both the skeletal and cardiac muscles satisfy their energy requirement mainly through oxidation of ketone bodies." This is contrary to the current article's the "heart gets little energy from ketone bodies; it uses mainly fatty acids." I don't know which one is right (did look in PubMed and found some articles suggesting limited ketone body usage by skeletal muscle). Clarify. 76.21.142.29 (talk) 04:47, 4 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ketones in Sweat

I find it unusual that there is no mention of ketones being secreted in sweat, despite the recent study that found that people with high levels of ketones in their sweat are less likely to get bitten by mosquitoes.

<a href="http://www.thefreelibrary.com/People+with+fruity+smelling+sweat+get+bitten+less+by+mosquitoes-a0207336375">People with fruity smelling sweat get bitten less by mosquitoes.</a>

That article doesn't mention acetone once. Fruit smells absolutely nothing like acetone. Also, the reason why any article doesn't mention something that you think is missing is because you haven't added it yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.164.138.19 (talk) 10:15, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is Ketosis Really "Abnormal"?

The article states:

"However, when excess ketone bodies accumulate, this abnormal (but not necessarily harmful) state is called ketosis."

But "normal" is not clearly defined and is a matter of debate. In the standard American diet, it's normal to eat a lot of carbohydrates and therefore not be using ketones as the primary source of energy. But Paleo nutritionists point out that ketosis may have been the body's most common state throughout most of evolution.

I suggest that any claim that ketosis is "normal" or "abnormal" clearly state what is meant and that it be accompanied by a citation of a credible source.

Ketogenic amino acids

You should add something about ketogenic amino acids. They produce ketone bodies also.--Miguelferig (talk) 18:43, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Omission and contradiction in article

Firstly, there is an omission. The beginning of the article, second sentence, says: Two of the three are used as a source of energy in the heart and brain while the third is a waste product excreted from the body. However, it doesn't say which one is excreted. Having made a statement like this, it ought to say. Secondly, the rest of the article contradicts this statement. It states that acetoacetate and beta-hydroxybutyrate can be reconverted to acetyl-CoA to produce energy, thus both can be used for energy. It also states that: Acetone is produced by spontaneous decarboxylation of acetoacetate (meaning this ketone body will break down in five hours if it is not needed for energy and be removed as waste. This states that acetone can be used for energy, but will be lost if it isn't used. Thus, the article says that all 3 can be used for energy, but the second sentence says that only 2 of the 3 are used for energy - a contradiction. Ynotna (talk) 22:48, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ketone bodies/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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I am a biochemistry professor who teaches this material to medical students. The article needs work, in part because there are a lot of things that are not quite right. Contrary to what the article says or implies: (1) Many tissues use ketone bodies as a fuel, not just the heart and brain; (2)Blood glucose does not drop during a fast, but stays remarkably constant; the rise in ketone bodies can be traced back to an increased in fatty acid release by adipose tissue; (3) The percentage of energy the brain gets from ketone bodies does reach 70% after a prolonged fast, but I don't know where the author got the numbers for 3 and 4 days of fasting; (4)The comment about needing glucose for long thin axons is something I have never seen before.

The references are really weak. The author of this article should be working from a textbook of medical biochemistry, such as "Mark's Basic Medical Biochemistry."

Mroseman4 (talk) 22:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Mroseman4 regarding point(3), it seems likely to be a typo. http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Ketone_bodies.html suggests "40" days, not "4". --User:James 23:30, 8 October 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.102.14.116 (talk) [reply]

Last edited at 22:34, 8 October 2013 (UTC). Substituted at 21:09, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Exclusivity of the liver for gluconeogenesis and oxaloacetate diversion

This article states that only the liver is capable of diverting TCA cycle oxaloacetate for gluconeogenesis, but the article on gluconeogenesis states that GNG can be performed in mammals in liver, kidney, small intestine, muscle, and possibly even astrocytes. Are these non-liver sites diverting oxaloacetate as well?

Erroneous statement in second paragraph

The first sentence of the second paragraph -- "Ketone bodies are resultant of intense gluconeogenesis in the liver..." -- is flat out wrong. The entire second paragraph is misleading and unnecessary and should be removed or at least corrected. There is NO NEED to mention gluconeogenesis in this context. The correct facts are as follows:

Ketone bodies result from metabolism of fatty acids in the liver at a rate greater than required to supply the energy needs of the liver. The excess acetyl CoA derived from beta oxidation of fatty acids is converted to ketone bodies, which are released into the blood by the liver. The rate of fatty acid metabolism in the liver is controlled by the availability of free fatty acids in the blood, which is in turn controlled by the rate of fat mobilization from fat stores in adipose tissue, which in turn is activated by high glucagon levels in the blood. Thus ketone bodies are the indirect result of a high rate of fatty acid mobilization in adipose tissue, NOT of gluconeogenesis.

High glucagon levels in the blood ALSO directly activate gluconeogenesis in the liver, which produces glucose (from amino acids, glycerol and lactate in the blood, but not from fatty acids), which is also released by the liver into the blood. For this reason, gluconeogenesis in the liver usually occurs at the same time as ketone body production in the liver, but they are quite separate pathways, with different precursors and products. The only thing they have in common is that they are both activated when blood glucagon is high (and blood insulin is low).

If paragraph 2 is not corrected, I will remove it the next time I visit this site. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.52.207.45 (talk) 02:49, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Page move to singular

Hello, I just moved this page go a singular title according to WP:SINGULAR. The term "ketone body" isn't a plurale tantum and can be referred to in both singular and plural form. –Tobias (talk) 18:45, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 25 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: NOT MOVED. There is consensus that "ketone bodies" is a group or class per WP:PLURAL (non-admin closure) Toadspike [Talk] 09:52, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ketone bodies → Ketone body – per WP:SINGULAR, singular form not that uncommon and therefore first choice, topic doesn't describe a specific group of things, consistency with Mallory body, Barr body, Councilman body, Psammoma body, Aschoff body, and Nissl body among others. –Tobias (talk) 19:05, 25 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 00:15, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support - as proposed. Primergrey (talk) 20:00, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as ketone bodies refers to the set of the ketone-bearing small molecules related to fatty acid metabolism. The current title is in line with WP:PLURAL, i.e. the Arabic numerals/Maxwell equations examples. The listed examples are not directly analogous, as they refer to discrete physical structures. I believe the singular is usually used to avoid cumbersome grammar, for example, ketone body metabolism rather than metabolism of ketone bodies. ― Synpath 00:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Molecular Biology, WikiProject Medicine/Society and medicine task force, and WikiProject Medicine have been notified of this discussion. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 00:15, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: I agree with Synpath that ketone bodies seem to match more closely with the examples in WP:PLURAL. There is not so much a "ketone body", as there are a group of different molecules that all have ketone groups, collectively known as "ketone bodies". Mgp28 (talk) 09:52, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
oppose per Mgp28--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 11:54, 4 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.