Talk:Fiddle

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Unsure about statements on Eastern Canadian Fiddling Styles

In the section that breaks down (no pun intended) the styles of fiddling in Eastern Canada, a number of un-sourced (and I would contend un-true) statments are made. I would advocate that these be fixed with attribution to references, or removed entirely. In specific, I refer to:

• Cape Breton fiddling, with a distinct Scottish and Acadian influence The reference below to Acadian fiddling states that it has "similarities to Cape Breton fiddling". This seems like circular logic, and doesn't contribute to any advancement of knowledge.
• French-Canadian fiddling, influenced from the Brittany area of northern France Highly doubtful. Classic Breton styles, such as the gavotte, are not part of the French-Canadian repertoire. Much of the music tradition of Quebec, and by extension, the rest of French speaking Canada (with the exception of Acadia) stems more from Normandy and Dauphiné regions, then Brittany. As for the fiddling specifically, heavy Irish and Scottish influences (reels - called "une rile" and jigs) supplement the rigodons and other traditional French music genres
• Métis fiddling, of central and western Canada, with French influence
• Newfoundland and Labrador fiddling, with a strong Irish Sliabh Luachra style of playing
• Maritimes, Acadian or Downeast style of fiddling which has many similarities to Cape Breton fiddling First, Maritime and Acadian shouldn't be used interchangeably. The Maritimes as a region has various styles, largely depending on history of settlement. Cape Breton style is overwhelmingly Scottish. However, there are long-standing pockets of Irish style. These two genres heavily influenced the Acadian style, but the Irish or Scottish mix with the French style varies by region, depending which group was closer to the Acadian settlement. As a result, Cape Breton Acadian fiddlers play more Scottish-influenced styles than Peninsula Acadians, who would have been more influenced by the large Irish settlements of the Miramichi and the Chaleur coast. However, there is another entirely different and non-Celtic tradition of fiddling in the Maritimes, often referred to as "Old Time" (or even "Down east" or "down home", which most likely has its roots with Loyalist settlement (a certain resemblance to Appalachian styles would corroborate different brancheson a common evolutionary tree), and is more derived from English music traditions. Don Messer, the renown New Brunswick fiddler would fall in this style/category. Rhythms such as quick-steps, waltzes and breakdowns are more common, and even jigs have a different feel.
• English-Canadian fiddling or Anglo-Canadian fiddling, which is a combination of English, Scottish, Irish, French, Ukrainian and German fiddling styles I think this is too broad, and would need to be broken down by region

This is a tonne of information I have learned through osmosis over the years, by being from the region, and my family being of a variety of the aforementioned backgrounds. I can play you the difference in styles, but unfortunately, I don't have the written resources to reference this. I hope that anyone who might be able to contribute will. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zapallon (talk • contribs) 16:27, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

"It is also a colloquial term for the instrument used by players in all genres, including classical music."????

This seems as if some overzealous editor removed any reference to the fact that the term is generally associated more with popular music forms than with orchestral music. I'm no expert so I won't try to fix this - certainly, the word is used in classical music, but as far as I can tell that is not where the word is most at home. Please fix. 190.149.80.4 (talk) 23:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC) ◌

Yeah, I don't get this either. The first three sentences of the article contradict each other. Is it the same as a violin, most often a violin, or similar to the violin? Someone needs to clarify this stat. Ari1891adler (talk) 16:29, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

The actual sentences do not contradict each other, and I've added a bit to the "essentially synonymous" one. If you haven't already done so, please become familiar with the contents of the rest of this talk page. If you have specific suggestions for clarification, I'm all ears. Just plain Bill (talk) 19:06, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

From what I can see, the distinction is still not clear. A violin with a slightly different bridge is still a violin. Raising or lowering the action of an instrument (which is what changing the shape of the bridge would do), is a matter of preference for the player. It doesn't change the nature of the instrument itself. A guitar with light gauge metal strings and a low action is preferred by a lot of blues players, while a guitar with heavier gauge nylon strings and a higher action is often preferred by classical guitar players. Nonetheless, they are still the same instrument. 108.26.206.187 (talk) 00:15, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Filled with misinformation

"Fiddle" and "violin" simply come to English via 2 different paths (Germanic languages and Italian respectively). Classism determines which is used when: they're called "violins" when they're used to play music to be passively listened to by people in expensive clothing, but "fiddles" when used by working-class people to play music for dancing. But the instruments themselves are not significantly different in construction (the Hardingfele's drone strings notwithstanding).

I don't have the time to go through and make all the necessary corrections or even note them here, but I certainly hope someone does! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.239.11.217 (talk) 00:23, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

On the contrary, I would go the other way - a violin is merely one (the most common) type of fiddle. Some other types are superficiallys imiler e.g. haardanger fiddle; some are visually very different e.g. crwth. There are many kinds of fiddle from all over the world sich as spike fiddles in the East. So I would say the article needs expanded to become more diverse. StrumStrumAndBeHanged (talk) 18:15, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree this article is riddled with misinformation

It is hard to know where to begin. FOr one thing, a history of viol instruments is not "fiddle". Fiddle is fiddle, violin is violin, viola de gamba is viola de gamba. We do not have articles about australopithecus talk about the dinosaurs, we do not have articles about amino acids talk at great length about nitrogen's atomic structure. AThe article on "Z" does not dwell at length on the letter "B". Etc. "Fiddle" is not a synonym for "violin". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Geofferybard (talk • contribs)

Could you please tell me how to distinguish between a fiddle and a violin just by looking at them? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.87.19.198 (talk) 22:30, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

A fiddle has a less pronounced arch in the bridge, thus the strings are "flatter" across the space where they are played, and therefore a fiddler may play three or more strings simultaneously where a violinist could not. It may not be a simple distinction to the eye (although it is visible on close examination), but it is a significant structural difference which provides a distinct difference in the manner of play and the range of sounds which can be produced. 72.73.114.181 (talk) 01:44, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Changes to lead paragraph

Here is a place to discuss this diff. For starters, all violins are fiddles, but not all fiddles are violins. The foremost difference between a violin and a fiddle is the attitude and style of the player. Generalizations about action height, bridge top curve, and tailpiece configuration are unsupportable and unencyclopedic. Many professionals do their fiddling on instruments set up to normal violin standards.

I doubt you could find a credible organologist who would deny that a rebab is a spike fiddle. It most certainly is not "essentially a violin." __ Just plain Bill (talk) 20:54, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

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Article split/rename

The article title and the orientation of the article does not quite make sense. Fiddle is a synonym for violin so, as titled, this article should redirect to the violin article. But this article largely discusses the violin-based folk music traditions around the world. An appropriate name for that would be fiddling. I propose that

1. Most content in this article about the instrument itself be merged into violin.
2. The remaining content about the music traditions be re-organized under the name fiddling (which is currently a redirect).

-- MC 141.131.2.3 (talk) 20:47, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

Hi, MC. Just to let you know, earlier this year it was discussed to merge Violin with Fiddle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Violin#Merge_tag and the few interested in consensus agreed that the Violin article would become far too unwieldy. Also, there are other types of instruments called "fiddles" besides the one many people think of. As far as the playing of the fiddle(s), I agree to a certain extent that the folk music aspect of it is a larger part, but as the music created is made on fiddles, it's difficult to separate the two. I can see how a name change might be beneficial. LovelyLillith (talk) 22:38, 17 October 2017 (UTC)

Move

Requested move 16 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved TonyBallioni (talk) 05:03, 31 October 2017 (UTC)

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Fiddle → Fiddling – Per proposal, this article should be redirected to Violin and its content be moved to Fiddling, with modifications. 141.131.2.3 (talk) 18:13, 16 October 2017 (UTC) --Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 21:44, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

A direct move is not allowed for standard user because Fiddling already exists. Users objected to doing a copy/paste so I'm requesting that an administrator do the move.

Thanks.

-- MC 141.131.2.3 (talk) 18:13, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. I think the present article is correctly titled for discussing fiddle music. Many sources use the term as it is used here.[1]--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:35, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
• Support It's clear that it discusses the act of "fiddling". Having an article called "violin" and "fiddle" is redundant, as they are the same instrument._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 23:45, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Comment: All violins are fiddles, but not all fiddles are violins. Just plain Bill (talk) 00:42, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
    • When I search for images of a "fiddle" I get predominantly violins. If this article exists to delineate the differences between a violin and a fiddle variant, it certainly doesn't say it anywhere._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 11:21, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
      • This article is in rough shape with regard to defining what a fiddle is. I just added some examples to the “distant relatives” section, including spike fiddles such as the rebab and huqin. Web searches have their own sampling bias, and cannot be considered reliable sources. In organological terms, an erhu is just as much a fiddle as is a western violin. That said, a lot of fiddling is done (in pubs, parlors, and concert venues) with violins set up to modern “classical” standards. Article is a work in progress, and all that. Just plain Bill (talk) 13:19, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Per recent discussion here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Violin#Merge_tag LovelyLillith (talk) 22:51, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. The current title seems to be the best one for the article, which covers the particular uses of the violin when it is denoted as a fiddle, as well as fiddle playing. "Fiddle" is much more used than "fiddling", as noted by Cuchullain. However, I dispute that assertion above that "All violins are fiddles, but not all fiddles are violins". In almost all practical cases, fiddling is done using a regular violin. I am inserting a hatnote to lead users directly to violin if they wish to go there.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:12, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
  • Please clarify ”almost all practical cases”, and explain how an erhu is not a fiddle. Just plain Bill (talk) 18:47, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

All fiddles are not violins

If the scope of this article is limited to the modern anglosphere, then the great majority of fiddles are violins, or not much different from a modern standard violin. Even with such a limited scope, there are other fiddles, such as the cello in the Scottish traditional grouping of “wee fiddle and big fiddle” and the cigar-box fiddle sometimes used in the US old-time fiddling tradition. I’m not alone in having fiddled on a viola; it is possible to find books of fiddle tunes written in alto clef.

If the scope of the article is to include a global and historical view, then there are numerous examples of instruments which are fiddles, but not violins. See rabeca and erhu.

With that in mind, the first sentence of the introduction, “Fiddle is another name for the bowed string musical instrument more often called a violin.” is incorrect, and contradicted by the cited reference. A better way of putting it will be something like “A fiddle is a bowed string musical instrument, often a violin.” which is consistent with the reference. Just plain Bill (talk) 21:03, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

What if the difference was, that Django R. could dance while fiddling, but not while using a violin? I once watched some guy not quite 80 years of age doing that trick. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4DD7:D7B5:0:515A:EB32:B765:E5D4 (talk) 01:31, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

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A "fiddle" has 5 strings

I was personally taught in orchestra class that the word fiddle can be used as slang for a violin but that a true fiddle has five strings. Four come from the violin and the fifth is from the viola. Also all the mediocre and better violin players in our moderately sized city of Columbus, Indiana had fine tuners on ALL their strings. And our local symphonies and orchestras violin players used them on all four strings as well. And that was 20 years ago! Alys Flux (talk) 11:27, 6 August 2018 (UTC)

Article subject & lead need resolution

The lead of this story violates WP:MOSLEAD. I've never seen a Wikipedia article that starts by defining a word that isn't the subject of the article. I realize there's been debate about moving some of the article and that this was voted down. I also understand there's resistance to putting the definition of fiddle first (as I recently attempted and was reverted). However, these two decisions-by-consensus contradict each other, and this contradiction should be resolved. Regardless of the subject or the contents, it's most important to follow WP:MOSLEAD and start the article by defining its subject, as all other Wikipedia articles do (that I'm aware of). Seriously, if you wanted to learn what Fish are, wouldn't it be unhelpful if the article started off, "Fishing is the act of..."? Because that's exactly what happened to me — I wanted to learn what a fiddle is, not learn what fiddling is. -Jordgette [talk] 20:04, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

If there is no discussion on this topic (the D in WP:BRD), I am going to change the first part of the hatnote to, "This article is about the musical instrument and its playing styles. For more, see Violin" and switch the sentence "Fiddling refers to the act of playing the fiddle, and fiddlers are musicians that play it" to the start of the lead's 2nd paragraph, which is actually about fiddling. Whereas the first paragraph almost exclusively concerns the instrument. It's most important to remove the confusion from the first sentence of the lead (as well as the hatnote); the article name (fiddle vs. fiddling) is less important. -Jordgette [talk] 15:18, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

That seems sensible. I would lose the "refers to" and simply say "Fiddling is the act of playing..." Just plain Bill (talk) 16:04, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

"Fiddle and violin" listed at Redirects for discussion

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"Violoneux" listed at Redirects for discussion

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