Talk:Jedwabne pogrom

Stachura in Glaukopis

The article currently includes:

Stachura took exception to their letter. History declined to publish his reply; instead, it was posted on the website of Glaukopis, a right-wing Polish journal.Stachura, Peter (6 February 2008). "Jedwabne: A reply to Antony Polonsky & Joanna Michlic" (PDF). Glaukopis. Archived from the original (PDF) on 10 May 2017.

References

Glaukopis is a problematic publication, whose web site moreover only hosts the letter, after History declined to publish it. Finding this statement to be undue, I suggest it be removed. -- K.e.coffman (talk) 20:09, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Entirely agree. "Glaukopis, a journal which caters to, and is led by, the Polish extreme nationalistic right. Its long-time editor-in-chief, Wojciech Muszyński (an employee of the IPN), openly praises the ONR, one of the most militant, rabidly antisemitic organizations of prewar Poland." There's no place for use of publications associated with anti-semitism as secondary sources on Wikipedia, and this one would almost certainly fail a WP:RS review. Any editors who disagree, I invite them to take it up at WP:RSN for community discussion. In the meantime, I am WP:BOLD removing it as a matter of urgency. -Chumchum7 (talk) 06:59, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. When I initially encountered this, I thought this was an article published in a reliable outlet. Forward a decade, I concur this has issues with BLP / RS and does not meet our modern standards. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Hasten to add that the quote I used above is from the widely respected Polish chapter[1] of the International Council of Christians and Jews, their website publication of Jan Grabowski's controversial essay, "Wikipedia’s Intentional Distortion of the History of the Holocaust". In that essay he makes wide-ranging allegations against Wikipedia that AFAIU Wikipedia has contested in part and responded to. Still, I treat his opinion about Glaukopis as a noteworthy mainstream-academic observation, one that crosses our threshold for source reliability and minority view concerns. -Chumchum7 (talk) 07:26, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with the removal, however I was wondering if Glaukopis should also be removed from other articles where it's used as a source and/or listed in the biography (here below in the collapse box). Obviously removing the quotation is not enough: the supported text should also be checked. Shall we have a discussion at WP:RSN on this?

Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:01, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

I answered myself. The discussion at RSN is here. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:22, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

References

Yes, I fully support total removal of the source across Wikipedia. -Chumchum7 (talk) 13:25, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Recent edits to the lede

After I removed Glaukopis per above, having seen it is associated with anti-semitism, now I see more discussion is needed about the lede. This once-volatile article has just had it's longest period of stability for ages, lasting for many months of peace and WP:CONS. But looking at the lede after this recent round of good faith edits [2] the tell-tale WP:HOWEVER looks like a return to impassioned editorializing. Edit summary shows this is possibly a result of an honest misperception of bad faith in our article: "The selective quotation of an extract from Gross fundamentally distorts the main point of his book - to draw attention to the co-responsibility of sectors of the Polish population in the Holocaust." That's going too far about the use of a verifiable quote. In fact, it's partly there because anti-semitic Polish nationalists falsely accuse Gross of having an unbalanced approach to Polish responsibility in the Jedwabne pogrom; contrary to what the anti-semites say, it's verifiable in Gross's text that he's very balanced in terms of the Polish and German joint roles, particularly with reference to the Polish murderers' pre-massacre conference with the German "Gestapo" and the 'order' to carry it out, and that in no way undermines the fact that the Polish murderers carried out the murders of their own free will. This article says the Polish murderers of Jews cooperated with the Germans; it does not say they were coerced, indeed I have removed that exact WP:OR in the past. Thoughts? Chumchum7 (talk) 15:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm glad you acknowledge that Gross's text is balanced in terms of Polish/Germans responsabilities; along with WP:V, this is why we shouldn't unbalance the article by misrepresenting the source. Your edit restores a version of the article that misrepresents Gross by selectively quoting from his book. You mention the tell-tale WP:HOWEVER, but the "however" was already there in the source, and omitting it distorts Gross's findings. Gross says

Now, let us understand the broader context in which the murders took place. At the time the overall undisputed bosses over life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans. No sustained organized activity could take place there without their consent.13 They were the only ones who could decide the fate of the Jews. It was within their power also to stop the murderous pogrom at any time. And they did not choose to intervene. If they suggested that some Jewish families be spared, they must have done so without serious conviction, for all the Jews on whom the murderers lay their hands were killed in the end. And, ironically, on that day the outpost of the German gendarmerie was the safest place in town for the Jews, and a few survived only because they happened to be there at the time. But it is also clear that had Jedwabne not been occupied by the Germans, the Jews of Jedwabne would not have been murdered by their neighbors. This is not a gratuitous observation—the tragedy of Jedwabne Jewry is but an episode in the murderous war that Hitler waged against all Jews. As to the Germans’ direct participation in the mass murder of Jews in Jedwabne on July 10, 1941, however, one must admit that it was limited, pretty much, to their taking pictures

Gross's point is quite clear: the Germans could have prevented the pogrom, and they didn't, they were the necessary condition and triggering factor of the pogrom; however, the pogrom was carried out by the Poles on their own initiative: the so-called local population involved in killings of Jews did so of its own free will (p. 133). We shouldn't misrepresent the main thesis of the book by including in the lead only that According to historian Jan T. Gross, "the undisputed bosses of life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans," who were "the only ones who could decide the fate of the Jews." This is also contrary to WP:MOS, since the body of the article reports that While Gross recognized that no "sustained organizing activity" could have taken place without the Germans' consent, he concluded that the massacre had been carried out entirely by Poles (section Jan T. Gross's Neighbors, 2000).

I agree that WP:BRD must be followed here and I won't restore my bold edit, but per WP:V and WP:ONUS I'm now removing the contentious quotation/misrepresentation of Gross until a consensus is reached. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 09:34, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Gitz, I'm sorry but this looks like original research on your part. The whole paragraph you quote is precisely about German culpability, and only the last sentence notes that their direct participation was limited. The "own initiative" are your words, not Gross' ("however, the pogrom was carried out by the Poles on their own initiative"). "Of own free will" is different than "on your own initiative". I am going to restore this text as I don't see much beyond creative and selective reading of the source here. Volunteer Marek 03:50, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Ok the pogrom was carried out by the Poles of their "own free will" rather than "own initiative". Re initiative, Gross says Where the initiative came from [whether from the Germans or Poles] is impossible to settle once and for all. But it is also an academic question, since both sides apparently quickly agreed on the matter, and on the method of its implementation. However, you are using "original research" in a way that has no basis in policy: WP:OR applies to the content of WP articles, not to the arguments exchanged by editors in talk page discussion, and both in the text I published [3] and in the talk page discussion (here above) the quotations from Gross were accurate, namely: Germans' direct participation in the massacre was limited, pretty much, to their taking pictures and the so-called local population involved in killings of Jews did so of its own free will. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:52, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

In re: this edit, the remaining text leaves the impression that the Germans may have played a more active role than the current research suggests, with the clarifying material removed:

...their direct participation in the massacre, however, was "limited, pretty much, to their taking pictures" and the local population was not compelled to participate directly in the killings of Jews but "did so of its own free will".

References

I recommend that the removed material be restored.

As the next edit, this text was then removed: [4]. Is this a separate issue, or related to the restoration above? Please help me understand. --K.e.coffman (talk) 03:22, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Sure, what you're seeing is the bold, revert, discuss cycle in progress. Up until the recent edits to the lede, this article has reached unusual stability for a very long time time after what had previously been high volatility. This is one of our indications consensus had been reached. Along came this bold edit by Gitz [5] which per WP:BRD I took to the Talk page by opening discussion about above and reverted [6] pending a new consensus being reached.

In discussion, Gitz has explained their objection to the use of the quote by Gross is that they see it as selective, and so their WP:BOLD addition of further quotes by Gross was aimed at adding balance. Given my WP:BRD removed Gitz's additional Gross quotes, they then additionally WP:BOLD removed the first Gross quote that had prompted Gitz's intervention in the first place: [7]

This is in a sense Gitz's alternative BOLD-refine, which I can support pending another solution. It leaves no quotes at all instead of the use of multiple quotes with the aim of balancing quotes out; this second bold edit by Gitz is preferable to a thread mode of quotes in the lede.

As far as I can see, Gitz's second bold edit seems to have inadvertently also removed what were reference [6] reference [7] and note [a], from the end of the same paragraph in the lede, which can be seen here [8]. It's easily done, and easily fixed. Happily reference [7] was a repetition of Persak anyway so it is right to remain deleted. Many thanks, -Chumchum7 (talk) 04:49, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Apart from one minor detail, I agree entirely with Chumchum7 account of the editing process and discussion we've had so far. I think we should discuss whether we want a full presentation of Gross's book in the lead (this version of the lead, following my first bold edit) or rather we don't want to have any mention to Grass (the current version, following my second edit quoting WP:ONUS). However, I objected to maintaining the status quo version, which IMHO misrepresents Gross's book.

The "minor detail" I don't agree with is that I didn't remove reference [6] reference [7] and note [a] inadvertently. These references were supporting/strengthening the claim the undisputed bosses of life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans. If that sentence is removed, those references are no longer needed. At most, they should be placed somewhere in the article body rather than the lead.

Honestly, I think that that WP:OVERKILL, that clutter of references and verbatim quotations supporting the claim "It's the Germans' fault!", was there for a (questionable) reason. The historical consensus seems to be that both the German occupiers and the local population were responsible for the pogrom. The Germans were the triggering factor, the necessary condition: without them, there would have been no pogrom. The local population, however, was not directed by the Germans, but acted autonomously. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 12:49, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Right, but then why is this exact information being removed? Volunteer Marek 03:55, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

This is already explained in this thread, which I invite you to read. The text you have restored misrepresents Gross's book, as it contains a selective quotation from him that is likely to mislead readers who are not already familiar with his work. What about the text resulting from this edit of mine (reverted by Chumchum7): [9]. The information you don't want to remove (the undisputed bosses of life and death in Jedwabne were the Germans) is still included, but is supplemented by other quotes from Gross so as not to distort his findings. Would you be OK with that drafting of the lead? Or do you want to have that the undisputed bosses were the Germans and stop - no mention of local popolation acting of their own free will? Gitz (talk) (contribs) 14:01, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

My gut is that the "of their own free will" language is duplicative of what is already there. We are already saying At least 40 ethnic Poles carried out the killing; their ringleaders decided on it beforehand with Germany's Gestapo, SS security police or SS intelligence and they then cooperated with German military police. The words "cooperated with" and "decided on it beforehand with" make it clear that the Poles were not compelled. Adoring nanny (talk) 04:24, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Infobox: "in cooperation with German military police"

The same Gross quote under discussion above is supporting the infobox statement:

At least 40 ethnic Poles in cooperation with German military police

References

This quote from Gross was removed in this edit: [10], because (as I understand it) it was lacking the follow-up of "their [German's] direct participation in the massacre, however, was "limited, pretty much, to their taking pictures".... and the local population was not compelled to participate directly in the killings of Jews but "did so of its own free will."

I find the statement to be lacking nuance, being in the infobox, and it perhaps leaves the impression that the Germans may have played a more active role ("cooperation") than the current research suggests. Suggest "... in cooperation with" be removed from the infobox. "German incitement" is mentioned under the Motive parameter in the infobox and this is sufficient. --K.e.coffman (talk) 21:10, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

@K.e.coffman: Thank you. Apart from the Polish nationalist minority of sources that we ignore, all mainstream sources including Gross concur that Poles carried out the massacre in cooperation with German personnel. That refers to the well-documented meeting between the Polish ringleaders and German personnel right before the massacre took place, as well as the control of the town by German personnel at the time of the massacre. It's unambiguously a case of direct Polish collaboration with the Nazis.

So that we're all on the same page, let's ensure we're all familiar with this current research, and which sources we are referring to beyond Gross 2001. Because it's important to note at over the past 22 years the academic consensus has corrected parts of his generally excellent first-mover work. Initially, that was followed by an official murder investigation by the prosecutor Ignatiew which concluded in 2002. This was praised by Gross, it entailed far more witness testimony and documentation than Gross had, as well as a forensic excavation of the the massacre site to test the Gross hypotheses.

After the investigation, literally hundreds of secondary sources on Jedwabne were informed by it, a good indication of which is our reference, Stola 2003, which directly revises specific details in Gross, including that hypothesis around the taking of photographs. Stola himself has been in trouble with Poland's current nationalist government, because during his excellent leadership of the Museum of the History of Polish Jews the institution pointed out anti-Semitism among the pro-government media. I invite familiarization with Stola 2003 as it's right there for download through our article. Many thanks, -Chumchum7 (talk) 04:39, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Number of victims

We have now in the lead "At least 340 men, women and children were murdered, some 300 of whom were locked in a barn and burned alive". On this, we are relying on the findings of the IPN investigation (Ignatiew 2002, 2003). However, Stola 2003 says estimates vary from 300 to 1,600; he also says that estimates ranging from 400-800 seem much more plausible than those above 1,000. The Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, vol. 2, part A, 2012, p. 900, reports the following:

Some set the number of victims at 2,000, including 230 Wizna Jews, and others at 1,400, including refugees from Wizna and Radziłów. Until recently, the most widely accepted death toll was 1,600, likely drawn from the testimony of Szmul Wasersztejn.7 However, the Soviet population figures and an incomplete and controversial forensic investigation in 2002, which estimated 300 to 400 people perished in the barn, have led some to argue the fire claimed fewer lives. The number of survivors also varies, with Rywka Fogiel (Rivka Fogel) remembering 125 and Menachem Finkelsztejn, a Radziłów survivor, mentioning 302

On the basis of these sources, I suggest adopting Stola's non-committal formulation about estimates ranging btw 300 and 1600 and possibly providing more information on the number of victims in the article body. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 10:01, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I'm thinking that Stola's range of should be given more weight vs the "340" number (due to the incomplete exhumation) and the "1600+" numbers which I believe is widely considered too high today. Perhaps along the lines of: 400-800 victims, with a note in re: incomplete investigation confirming 300-400 bodies + estimates of up 1600 victims and higher having been put forth as well. Something like this.

Note: my comment refers to the infobox, which states, in this version of the article, "At least 340 Polish Jews[1]". --K.e.coffman (talk) 04:28, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree with this. I wouldn't object to having the "400-800 victims" figure also in the lead, if this information is supported by the sources (Stola, Crago) and supplemented by the quotations now in footnote 5. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 00:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

"Those who retracted included . . ."

My gut is that the individual names of those who retracted their confessions is WP:UNDUE. However, I don't feel terribly strongly about it, and idk how to handle the related citation, so I'm not going to be WP:BOLD and delete it. One option might be to say that "at least nine people retracted . . ." as there are nine names on the list. Adoring nanny (talk) 03:58, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Changed my mind as no one else has replied. Names are now deleted. Adoring nanny (talk) 02:50, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

"burnt alive"

I'm not 100% up on British English. I would have said "burned alive". But I'm not British. Adoring nanny (talk) 04:27, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Burnt alive is fine. Very quick addendum , "it's fine" from a spelling sense. Also as the article repeatedly uses a quote using "burned alive", burned is probably best for consistency. Also now realising this is a really old comment. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 15:45, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 December 2023

Change: After the German occupation, Polish villagers participated in pogroms against Jews in 23 localities of the Łomża and Białystok areas of the Podlasie region, with varying degrees of German involvement.

To: After the German occupation, Polish villagers participated in pogroms against Jews in 23 localities of the Łomża and Białystok areas of the Podlaskie region, with varying degrees of German involvement.

Also: Podlaskie region should redirect to "Podlaskie voivodeship" not "podlachia". LEJ PO ŁYMPIE (talk) 02:25, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made.  Spintendo  23:05, 31 December 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 June 2024

change

After the German occupation, Polish villagers participated in pogroms against Jews in 23 localities of the Łomża and Białystok areas of the Podlasie region, with varying degrees of German involvement.

to

After the German occupation, Polish villagers participated in pogroms against Jews in 23 localities of the Łomża and Białystok areas of the Podlaskie region, with varying degrees of German involvement. LEJ PO ŁYMPIE (talk) 12:00, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: A source would be required for this modification. Based on my research, this change is unsupported because the Podlaskie Voivodeship was not established until 1999. This means that during the event in question, the region was still "Podlasie". Also, please refrain from duplicating requests without adding additional information. Thanks. Garsh (talk) 00:54, 23 July 2024 (UTC)