Talk:Fusang

Fusang is not Japan

Though the term Fusang refers to Japan in modern days, ancient Chinese literature such as Book of Liang (《梁書•五十四•列傳四十八》) described Wa (倭 Japan) and Fusang (扶桑) in the same chapter. That indicates Fusang is not Japan.

(exerpt from the Book of Liang on Wa)

　 　 倭 者 ， 自 云 太 伯 之 後 。 俗 皆 文 身 。 去 帶 方 萬 二 千餘 里 ， 大 抵 在 會 稽 之 東 ， 相 去 絕 遠 。 從 帶 方 至 倭 ， 循 海水 行 ， 歷 韓 國 ， 乍 東 乍 南 ， 七 千 餘 里 始 度 一 海 。 海 闊 千餘 里 ， 名 瀚 海 ， 至 一 支 國 。 又 度 一 海 千 餘 里 ， 名 未 盧 國。 又 東 南 陸 行 五 百 里 ， 至 伊 都 國 。 又 東 南 行 百 里 ， 至 奴國 。 又 東 行 百 里 ， 至 不 彌 國 。 又 南 水 行 二 十 日 ， 至 投 馬國 。 又 南 水 行 十 日 ， 陸 行 一 月 日 ， 至 邪 馬 臺 國 ， 〔 二 九〕 即 倭 王 所 居 。 其 官 有 伊 支 馬 ， 次 曰 彌 馬 獲 支 ， 次 曰 奴往 鞮 。 民 種 禾 稻 紵 麻 ， 蠶 桑 織 績 。 有 薑 、 桂 、 橘 、 椒 、蘇 。 出 黑 雉 、 真 珠 、 青 玉 。 有 獸 如 牛 ， 名 山 鼠 。 又 有 大蛇 吞 此 獸 。 蛇 皮 堅 不 可 斫 ， 其 上 有 孔 ， 乍 開 乍 閉 ， 時 或有 光 ， 射 之 中 ， 蛇 則 死 矣 。 物 產 略 與 儋 耳 、 朱 崖 同 。 地溫 暖 ， 風 俗 不 淫 。 男 女 皆 露 紒 。 富 貴 者 以 錦 繡 雜 采 為 帽， 似 中 國 胡 公 頭 。 食 飲 用 籩 豆 。 其 死 ， 有 棺 無 槨 ， 封 土作 冢 。 人 性 皆 嗜 酒 。 俗 不 知 正 歲 ， 多 壽 考 ， 多 至 八 九 十， 或 至 百 歲 。 其 俗 女 多 男 少 ， 貴 者 至 四 五 妻 ， 賤 者 猶 兩三 妻 。 婦 人 無 婬 妒 。 無 盜 竊 ， 少 諍 訟 。 若 犯 法 ， 輕 者 沒其 妻 子 ， 重 則 滅 其 宗 族 。

　 　 漢 靈 帝 光 和 中 ， 倭 國 亂 ， 相 攻 伐 歷 年 ， 乃 共 立 一女 子 卑 彌 呼 為 王 。 彌 呼 無 夫 婿 ， 挾 鬼 道 ， 能 惑 眾 ， 故 國人 立 之 。 有 男 弟 佐 治 國 。 自 為 王 ， 少 有 見 者 ， 以 婢 千 人自 侍 ， 唯 使 一 男 子 出 入 傳 教 令 。 所 處 宮 室 ， 常 有 兵 守 衛。 至 魏 景 初 三 年 ， 公 孫 淵 誅 後 ， 卑 彌 呼 始 遣 使 朝 貢 ， 魏以 為 親 魏 王 ， 假 金 印 紫 綬 。 正 始 中 ， 卑 彌 呼 死 ， 更 立 男王 ， 國 中 不 服 ， 更 相 誅 殺 ， 復 立 卑 彌 呼 宗 女 臺 與 為 王 。其 後 復 立 男 王 ， 並 受 中 國 爵 命 。 晉 安 帝 時 ， 有 倭 王 贊 。贊 死 ， 立 弟 彌 。 彌 死 ， 立 子 濟 。 濟 死 ， 立 子 興 。 興 死 ，立 弟 武 。 齊 建 元 中 ， 除 武 持 節 、 督 倭 新 羅 任 那 伽 羅 秦 韓慕 韓 六 國 諸 軍 事 、 鎮 東 大 將 軍 。 高 祖 即 位 ， 進 武 號 征 東大 將 軍 。 〔 三 ０ 〕

(exerpt from the Book of Liang on Fusang)

　 　 扶 桑 國 者 ， 齊 永 元 元 年 ， 其 國 有 沙 門 慧 深 來 至 荊州 ， 說 云 ： 「 扶 桑 在 大 漢 國 東 二 萬 餘 里 ， 地 在 中 國 之 東， 其 土 多 扶 桑 木 ， 故 以 為 名 。 扶 桑 葉 似 桐 ， 而 初 生 如  ，國 人 食 之 ， 實 如 梨 而 赤 ， 績 其 皮 為 布 以 為 衣 ， 亦 以 為 綿。 作 板 屋 。 無 城 郭 。 有 文 字 ， 以 扶 桑 皮 為 紙 。 無 兵 甲 ，不 攻 戰 。 其 國 法 ， 有 南 北 獄 。 若 犯 輕 者 入 南 獄 ， 重 罪 者入 北 獄 。 有 赦 則 赦 南 獄 ， 不 赦 北 獄 。 在 北 獄 者 ， 男 女 相配 ， 生 男 八 歲 為 奴 ， 生 女 九 歲 為 婢 。 犯 罪 之 身 ， 至 死 不出 。 貴 人 有 罪 ， 國 乃 大 會 ， 坐 罪 人 於 坑 ， 對 之 宴 飲 ， 分訣 若 死 別 焉 。 以 灰 繞 之 ， 其 一 重 則 一 身 屏 退 ， 二 重 則 及子 孫 ， 三 重 則 及 七 世 。 名 國 王 為 乙 祁 ； 貴 人 第 一 者 為 大對 盧 ， 第 二 者 為 小 對 盧 ， 第 三 者 為 納 咄 沙 。 國 王 行 有 鼓角 導 從 。 其 衣 色 隨 年 改 易 ， 甲 乙 年 青 ， 丙 丁 年 赤 ， 戊 己年 黃 ， 庚 辛 年 白 ， 壬 癸 年 黑 。 有 牛 角 甚 長 ， 以 角 載 物 ，至 勝 二 十 斛 。 車 有 馬 車 、 牛 車 、 鹿 車 。 國 人 養 鹿 ， 如 中國 畜 牛 。 以 乳 為 酪 。 有 桑 梨 ， 經 年 不 壞 。 多 蒲 桃 。 其 地無 鐵 有 銅 ， 不 貴 金 銀 。 市 無 租 估 。 其 婚 姻 ， 婿 往 女 家 門外 作 屋 ， 晨 夕 灑 掃 ， 經 年 而 女 不 悅 ， 即 驅 之 ， 相 悅 乃 成婚 。 婚 禮 大 抵 與 中 國 同 。 親 喪 ， 七 日 不 食 ； 祖 父 母 喪 ，五 日 不 食 ； 兄 弟 伯 叔 姑 姊 妹 ， 三 日 不 食 。 設 靈 為 神 像 ，朝 夕 拜 奠 ， 不 制 縗 絰 。 嗣 王 立 ， 三 年 不 視 國 事 。 其 俗 舊無 佛 法 ， 宋 大 明 二 年 ， 罽 賓 國 ([亦稱犍陀羅(Gandhara，今巴基斯坦西北、阿富汗東部)]) 嘗 有 比 丘 五 人 游 行 至 其 國， 流 通 佛 法 、 經 像 ， 教 令 出 家 ， 風 俗 遂 改 。 」

慧深又云：(Hui Shan also said:)「扶桑東千餘里有女國，(There was a women nation at a thousand some Chinese mile east of Fusang,) 容貌端正，(faces look decent,) 色甚潔白，(skin color clean and pale,) 身體有毛，(hairy skin) 髮長委地。(long hair touching groud.) 至二、三月，(Around February and March,) 競入水則任娠，(competed into water to get pregnant,) 六七月產子。(give birth in 6 to 7 months.) 女人胸前無乳，(women had no breast,) 項後生毛，(grew hair at the back of neck,) 根白，(white at root,) 毛中有汁，(juice in hair,) 以乳子，(used as milk to feed child,) 一百日能行，(started walking in 100 days,) 三四年則成人矣。(mature in 3 to 4 years.) 見人驚避，(ran away from strangers,) 偏畏丈夫。(especially scared of husband (man??)) 食鹹草如禽獸。(fed on salty grass like animals.) 鹹草葉似邪蒿，(salty grass leaves shaped like 邪蒿 Seseli libanotsis, or var. daucifolia) 而氣香味鹹。(had fragrance and salty taste.)」 天監六年，(In the sixth year of the 天監 reign i.e. 507 AD) 有晉安人渡海，(Sailors from 晉安 cross the ocean,) 為風所飄至一島，(drifted to an island by wind,) 登岸，(landed,) 有人居止。(inhabited by people.) 女則如中國，(Females looked like Chinese) 而言語不可曉；(unrecognizable language;) 男則人身而狗頭，(males looked like men with dog's head,) 其聲如吠。(sounded like barking.) 其食有小豆。(their food included tiny peas (or beans)) 其衣如布。(their garment seemed to be made of cloth) 築土為墻，(built earthen walls) 其形圓，(in round shapes) 其戶如竇云。(the doors looked like holes)

It is interesting that the last paragraph above describe a tribe of women, further east from Fusang. Could it be the Amazon tribe in Brazil?

Er, um, that's a really bad interpretation. WHICH tribe in the Amazon were you thinking of? Or is it because of the name Amazon you're presuming there was a tribe of women?Skookum1 21:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

... I think he(she) meant the Amazon tribe in Greek mythology. Lol. --Sumple (Talk) 05:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the above proposition "Fusang is not Japan"... the only thing that can be said in respect with the sources is that "Fusang is not Wa", Wa being described as a statelet in Western Japan centered in Kyushu. Fusang is said to be 1500 km to the east of China, which in light of the other geographical descriptions of Hui-Sheng would probably position it in the eastern part of modern Japan.PHG 07:04, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the above proposition "Fusang is not Japan", the only thing that can be said is it's too absolute. It's absolutely the case that it could have referred to any part of Japan in antiquity. During the Middle Ages, it's not certain that it ever referred to any actual location instead of a fever dream or tall tale based on the ancient accounts... which again could've been based on Japan. — LlywelynII 08:22, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Was Hui-Sheng really Chinese?

Doubtless he was Buddhist, of course, but assuming he was Chinese Buddhist just because his budget was covered by the Son of Heaven is a stretch. As I recall from other write-ups, and missing here, is that he was from Jilin (sp?), the Chinese name for Kabul. He could have been Pashtun, Dari, Sassanid, Tokharian, even Greek; unless there's a bio which says he was born in China, and travelled to Jilin to become a monk, then came back to China inspired to travel to the west etc. then it's not really proven, although too often assumed, that he was Chinese. Much in the same way that it is forgotten by some that Columbus was Italian and not Castilian and Juan de Fuca was Greek and not Portuguese. One of the reasons I'm interested in the story, other than the side-issue of Hui-sheng's origins, is because of the traces of contact with Asia (not necessarily China) and various apocryphal legends in western North America; in the valley I'm from (http://www.cayoosh.net/seton.html and shalalth.html, skimka.html and others linked there) the native people have a legend that "LONG ago, someone came through the valley who was so good, people said he was God". Could have been anything; Quetzalcoatl or St. Thomas or Hui-sheng or whomever, even just some unnamed pilgrim from who knows where, but when I first heard it I thought immediately of Hui-sheng....Skookum1 17:36, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, let me ask that question again, and see if anyone has an answer; to hopefully get one here's the introductory sentence:

Fusang (扶桑, Mandarin Pīnyīn: fúsāng) is a country described by the Chinese Buddhist missionary Hui Shen

Hm. For one thing that would seem more appropriate in the past tense (was a country) but it's the "Chinese Buddhist" part I'm having troubled with. To repeat my previous question, and wanting an answer: if Hui Shen was from Jilin, i.e. Kabul, what proof is there that he WAS Chinese. There's a difference between being a monk commissioned by the Chinese emperor to do a mission, and a being a Chinese monk. It seems assumed that he was Chinese, but if he was from Jilin, doesn't it seem FAR more likely that he was of Bactrian (i.e. Pathan, Dari or other now-Afghanistan's many peoples of the time...). Surely the pretense isn't that Jilin/Kabul was part of China in the same way Uighurs are considered Chinese because Eastern Turkestan is part of what is now claimed as China? Does it say in the sources DIRECTLY that he was Chinese? What EXACTLY do the sources say of his origin? Again, there's a difference between sent on a mission with Chinese money/power/commission, and actually being Chinese...Columbus remained Italian, for example, despite his commission from the Spanish....Skookum1 22:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Being a Chinese Buddhist is not the same thing as being a Chinese Buddhist, which is not the same thing as being a Chinese Buddhist. You're obsessing on the ethnic bit which is fine but he fits both of the other concepts even if he was genetically Afghani. He is remembered as an agent of the Chinese Empire with a Chinese-language report on behalf of and preserved by the Chinese Buddhists. — LlywelynII 08:27, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Fusang as part of North America?

There seems to be evidence that Fusang was part of North America. Based on both interpretations of geographic distances and of observations. Two links follow: http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/1972/5/1972_5_26.shtml http://www.uh.edu/engines/epi1028.htm. I have no way of knowing the "right" answer, but it seems there is enough of a case for the main article to acknowledge the possibility. Failing that, to acknowledge the claims. [unsigned]

the article is wrong, there were horses in N.America way before Columbus time — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.221.152.189 (talk) 03:23, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Sure, but long before there was a China. Dougweller (talk) 05:11, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Li ( chinese mile ) values

The suggestions that the li appears to have been used as 77 meter in Liang times are removed. There is no reason to change the li to a standard that is 5-7 times less than normally, based on one or a few obscure passages. Really compelling evidence is needed for such a drastic, absurd change. There are enough passages in the Liang book and contemporary works to show that the li had the more regular values.

About the passage (which was unsourced)where a sea was crossed and was used to give the li that new standard of 77 meters : It can be erroneous or a copyist error but more important, the given distances in journeys are rather travel distances. The sea /strait might be 100-150 km wide between certain points but that does not mean that it was crossed from these points and nobody said that crossing a sea needs to happen in a straight line. Its very easy to travel 300 km or more on the water to cross the sea between Korea and Japan. A. Post-Muller (talk) 12:11, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Sounds good. Cheers, ClovisPt (talk) 17:27, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Huiseng

Long before Huiseng, fusang was mentioned in Chinese book such as Huainanzi(日出于旸谷，浴于咸池，拂于扶桑，是谓晨明), Shanhaijing(汤谷上有扶桑,十日所浴). And in Tang have a fusang county in Lingnan(扶桑县, 属岭南道禺州)KJ, And fusang also is the chinese name of Hibiscus rosa-sinensis.(talk) 09:17, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Hui Shen Was A Fusang Native Instead Of A Chinese

I edited the page on Aug 21,2009 correcting the sentence "described by the Chinese Buddhist missionary Hui Shen".According to the original text from Book of Liang,the country of Fusang was described by "a Shramana from there called Hui Shen" who "came to Jingzhou"(“其國有沙門慧深来至荆州”,literal translation:"A Shramana from the country called Hui Shen came to Jingzhou",meaning Hui Shen is a Fusang Native instead of a Chinese. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.34.232.57 (talk) 13:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

121.34.232.57 (talk) 14:01, 21 August 2009 (UTC)Lin Jingqiu

Additional sources for bibliography

[Absurd laundry list of unclear Google links commented out below] Rajmaan (talk) 23:31, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I know you stopped doing this but, no, it was never useful. — LlywelynII 08:36, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Huishen

I know Han Chinese names are typically 2 words of 1 or 2 characters each and the default way to break up such a name would be Hui Shen. This name ain't that, though. It's a descriptive single-word Dharma name the guy took on as a monk or a Chinese transcription or calque of whatever name in whatever Afghan language he came into the country using.

Even if it were a Han Chinese name, the Chinese surname is the first part, not the second. A person named Hui Shen is Mr/Ms Hui and Shen, Shenshen, Xiaoshen, Laoshen, &c. to their friends and never Mr/Ms Shen unless their name is being mangled by a sloppy/racist academic journal. — LlywelynII 08:41, 2 June 2024 (UTC)