Wikipedia:Deletion review
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Deletion review (DRV) is for reviewing speedy deletions and outcomes of deletion discussions. This includes appeals to delete pages kept after a prior discussion.
If you are considering a request for a deletion review, please read the "Purpose" section below to make sure that is what you wish to do. Then, follow the instructions below.
Purpose
Deletion review may be used:
- if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly;
- if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed;
- if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page;
- if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted; or
- if there were substantial procedural errors in the deletion discussion or speedy deletion.
Deletion review should not be used:
- because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment (a page may be renominated after a reasonable timeframe);
- (This point formerly required first consulting the deleting admin if possible. As per this discussion an editor is not required to consult the closer of a deletion discussion (or the deleting admin for a speedy deletion) before starting a deletion review. However doing so is good practice, and can often save time and effort for all concerned. Notifying the closer is required.)
- to point out other pages that have or have not been deleted (as each page is different and stands or falls on its own merits);
- to challenge an article's deletion via the proposed deletion process, or to have the history of a deleted page restored behind a new, improved version of the page, called a history-only undeletion (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these);
- to repeat arguments already made in the deletion discussion;
- to argue technicalities (such as a deletion discussion being closed ten minutes early);
- to request that previously deleted content be used on other pages (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these requests);
- to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias (such requests may be speedily closed);
- for uncontroversial undeletions, such as undeleting a very old article where substantial new sources have subsequently arisen. Use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead. (If any editor objects to the undeletion, then it is considered controversial and this forum may be used.)
- to ask for permission to write a new version of a page which was deleted, unless it has been protected against creation. In general you don't need anyone's permission to recreate a deleted page, if your new version does not qualify for deletion then it will not be deleted.
Copyright violating, libelous, or otherwise prohibited content will not be restored.
Instructions
Before listing a review request, please:
- Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
- Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.
Steps to list a new deletion review
If your request is completely non-controversial (e.g., restoring an article deleted with a PROD, restoring an image deleted for lack of adequate licensing information, asking that the history be emailed to you, etc), please use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead. |
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{{subst:drv2 |page=File:Foo.png |xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png |article=Foo |reason= }} ~~~~ |
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Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:
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For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach |
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Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion:
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Commenting in a deletion review
Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:
- Endorse the original closing decision; or
- Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
- List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
- Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
- Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted:
- *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~
- *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~
- *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~
- *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~
- *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~
- *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~
- *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~
Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate. Deletion review is facilitated by succinct discussions of policies and guidelines; long or repeated arguments are not generally helpful. Rather, editors should set out the key policies and guidelines supporting their preferred outcome.
The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.
Temporary undeletion
Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}}
template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.
Closing reviews
A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.
If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:
- If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
- If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.
Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)
Speedy closes
- Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
- Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
- Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
- Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive or sockpuppet nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".
Basically, and I know this is probably a tough sell, but WP:IAR. I uploaded this after the subject's death, it was a deliberately distributed publicity image sent out to the press by Hezzbollah. I added what I thought was a decent WP:FUR for using this instead of the other image to the right, which is beyond useless. It was nominated for speedy deletion with the following rationale: Not a screenshot of software as claimed in NFCC#1 section, and with a PD (all be it lower quality) image available on commons (see C:Category:Fuad Shukr)
I contested that nomination with the following comment: Claim is it is a screenshot of software or a website. The website it was screenshotted from is clearly identified. Previous image was of such a low quality that it was entirely useless in identifying the subject, we'd literally be better off with nothing. This is a publicity image that was deliberately, widely distributed after the subject's death, it is meant to be re-used to show what he looked like. There is no possiblity of creating a new free image as subject is deceased. At the very least this should be discussed as opposed to being speedy deleted.
but apparently the deleting admin did not find that compelling, so here we are. (the article in question is currently displaying a third image, that seems to have just been grabbed from a news website and is therefore not a publicity image as this one is, so it's probably going to be deleted soon) If there is absolutley no room for making an exception to the rules for the good of the project, then I guess the deletion will stand, but I'm hoping that's not the case. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:07, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- {{Non-free web screenshot}} is for images of websites, not anything that happens to be displayed on one. Just read it: it's intended "for identification and critical commentary relating to the website in question" (bolding original; italicization mine). The proper template would be {{non-free biog-pic}}. In that regard, you and Cakelot1 were talking past each other, and it shouldn't have been speedied solely on that basis - not even when we still had speedy deletion criterion F7a, which is the only one that would have applied for that reason; any reasonable admin would've fixed the template instead.The part that made this speedyable under a strict interpretation of F7c is that the Replaceability and Commercial parameters of {{Non-free use rationale 2}} were pasted in from a rationale for an image of a website qua website - "The software or website from which the screenshot is taken is copyrighted and not released under a free license, so creation of a free image is not possible." and "The use of a low resolution screenshot from software or a website will not impact the commercial viability of the software or site." respectively. Those do need fixing; they make Cakelot1's position much more reasonable than if it had just been the wrong non-free-use template; and they're just past what an admin looking at the expired F7c CSD template is expected to deal with himself. So I don't think Explicit acted wrongly.That said, on the merits, I agree that the free image we do have can't reasonably be considered an adequate substitute. Let's undelete this and send it to FFD; the paperwork in the usage rationale can be fixed there, we can all act aghast at the people who claim the eighteen pixels off to the right are sufficient for a biography, and the likely eventual keep result there should immunize it against further attempts at speedy deletion in favor of any of those pixels. —Cryptic 00:01, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- (There's a slightly better version of the roughly-18-pixel free image we have here. I'd describe that one as "about seventy-two pixels". I don't think it's a sufficient replacement, either; it could identify at least four people I saw today.) —Cryptic 00:41, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- I appreciate your detailed reply, I've been around a long time but image policy has never been my strong suit. In short:I was winging it. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 02:29, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- (There's a slightly better version of the roughly-18-pixel free image we have here. I'd describe that one as "about seventy-two pixels". I don't think it's a sufficient replacement, either; it could identify at least four people I saw today.) —Cryptic 00:41, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- Undelete and send to FFD per Cryptic. I see no fault in the deletion, but this would benefit from a discussion. No need to invoke IAR. Owen× ☎ 01:16, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- Undelete and send to FFD as a good-faith contested application of a speedy criteria. Jclemens (talk) 03:36, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedia has a lot of pages for intersex or gender diverse people. Son, Daughter and Child(Kid) page cannot replace the structural need of separate page for this meaning. Why there are gender neutral pages for parent, sibling, nibling, stepchild, childlessness but not for child(offspring)? Sharouser (talk) 00:08, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- To your question, a question: what was in the article you wrote - its entire content is visible in the "log" link above - that isn't already in Child? —Cryptic 00:27, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Even if entire content is visible in other article, this merging hurt structural relation. We can expand this article if this article is not deleted. Sharouser (talk) 00:34, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Who is "We"? Deb (talk) 06:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse A10. There is no need for a WP:CONTENTFORK of a page that already fully describes the concept of human offspring. Dclemens1971 (talk) 17:57, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse Creator's arguments in favor of this article are vague at best, and not compelling. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:44, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse the A10. The second paragraph in the existing article is about the kinship relationship. If there was additional information about the kinship relationship, it can be merged into the article by normal editing. If the author thinks that a separate article is in order, they can submit a draft via AFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse No need for a sub-specified topic when the appropriate content is already covered in the existing article. It doesn't even add anything as a redirect, which is a relatively low bar to clear. Jclemens (talk) 03:34, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse I can see that "child" is a kinship between animals as well as a developmental stage for an animal (in wikiworld generally human). In contrast, "sibling" is only a kinship and not a developmental stage. So, in principle there is more than one topic and so could be more than one article. However, in this case I think one article can suffice at present. I can't wrap my brain around the gender issue. Thincat (talk) 15:17, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Aqua Security (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
This was a WP:BADNAC closed by an editor who has never closed an Afd in their life. Likely paid to close it as no consensus. I would like it reopened so a qualified admin can take a look at it. scope_creepTalk 09:42, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
- File:1966 Official Lebanese Map of Shebaa Farms and Syrian border.png (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article, article|XfD|restore)
Fastily deleted the map on the grounds that it was "redundant", but then deleted both the redundant map and the original identical map that had existed for some 10 years. The map is fine and useful and accurate and should be restored. We don't need two maps, but we do need one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GreekParadise (talk • contribs) 17:26, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- Question - Is this an appeal of an action by Fastily or a closure by Explicit? The appellant says that Fastily deleted the map as redundant, but the history shows that Explicit deleted the map following FFD. What is being appealed? Robert McClenon (talk) 19:24, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- The file Fastily speedied (after speedying this one, reconsidering, and undeleting it) was File:Shebaafarms.png. The files were byte-for-byte identical. Strictly speaking, he was right the first time and should have speedied this one (as the other had the longer history), but it was this one that was at FFD, so I have no problem with that. Endorse the F1.This file was properly deleted by the FFD, and I'm surprised it lasted this long. Fastily was exactly correct in his comment at the FFD - not only is this a classic WP:NFCC#1 violation, it's so classic that we have a line in our WP:Non-free content policy describing exactly this situation, at WP:UUI #4. It could have itself been speedied under either clause c or d of WP:F7; it didn't even need to go to FFD, so I'm endorsing the deletion there too. —Cryptic 23:18, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- Neither Fastily nor Explicit have been notified by the filer, about this DRV. The instructions are very clear. I am at the point now with applicants of this nature who fail to follow basic processes that my !vote here is speedy endorse for being procedurally deficient, with supplementary reasoning of having minimal chance of success. Daniel (talk) 23:43, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- Pfft. I'm used to doing it, and wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only who's ever used any of the parameters of {{drvnote}} besides the pagename. (I got distracted this time by tracking down the other file being talked about.) The instructions at DRV are obscenely long and overcomplex, and various regulars here have fought tooth and nail against every attempt to streamline or simplify them, so we've only got ourselves to blame when everyone else's eyes just glaze over. —Cryptic 23:51, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've come to DRV to find things I've deleted have been listed here, and I wasn't notified. I know I'm not the only one. There's four steps listed at Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Steps_to_list_a_new_deletion_review, and one of them is notify the closer of the discussion. It's basic courtesy on the part of the applicant, and to not do so is (in my opinion) a significant failing. I'm sure others will likely disagree but that's my $0.02. Daniel (talk) 01:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Point well taken. I'll try to do better. —Cryptic 00:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Not you, Cryptic — it's on the applicants, entirely! You filling the void for these applicants' failings is obviously appreciated from a holistic standpoint, and you are doing great work in that space, but my umbrage is with the applicants who waste 7 days worth of DRV time with applications of various levels of frivolity yet can't even invest 5mins to read and execute the 4 steps required as part of completing an application here (one of which is to notify the closer of the discussion). Daniel (talk) 01:52, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- It's not their fault. The instructions suck, we can't seem to fix them, and they (the other they) are already upset that the content they worked on's been deleted. That never happened to me here until after I'd been dragged to RFA so could get it back myself, but it has on other wikis, and that's bad enough even when I can later admit the deletion was reasonable. Least we can do is give people a fair hearing. —Cryptic 02:32, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Not you, Cryptic — it's on the applicants, entirely! You filling the void for these applicants' failings is obviously appreciated from a holistic standpoint, and you are doing great work in that space, but my umbrage is with the applicants who waste 7 days worth of DRV time with applications of various levels of frivolity yet can't even invest 5mins to read and execute the 4 steps required as part of completing an application here (one of which is to notify the closer of the discussion). Daniel (talk) 01:52, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Point well taken. I'll try to do better. —Cryptic 00:28, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- I've come to DRV to find things I've deleted have been listed here, and I wasn't notified. I know I'm not the only one. There's four steps listed at Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Steps_to_list_a_new_deletion_review, and one of them is notify the closer of the discussion. It's basic courtesy on the part of the applicant, and to not do so is (in my opinion) a significant failing. I'm sure others will likely disagree but that's my $0.02. Daniel (talk) 01:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Pfft. I'm used to doing it, and wouldn't be surprised if I'm the only who's ever used any of the parameters of {{drvnote}} besides the pagename. (I got distracted this time by tracking down the other file being talked about.) The instructions at DRV are obscenely long and overcomplex, and various regulars here have fought tooth and nail against every attempt to streamline or simplify them, so we've only got ourselves to blame when everyone else's eyes just glaze over. —Cryptic 23:51, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse DRV isn't FfD redux, and the nom has failed to identify anything wrong with Explicit's close -Fastily 09:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse the speedy deletion and the FFD. The speedy deletion was for an identical image so I see nothing wrong with that deletion. The FFD was closed as delete per the consensus in the discussion. There has been no error in process for either deletion. -- Whpq (talk) 13:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Outlines are an acceptable page type, along with navigation templates, indexes, glossaries, lists, portals, and timelines. That includes the Outline of Florence. Its deletion was essentially a personal attack on me, as an extension of the portal deletion war of 2019, and the nomination was not in good faith. Waggers sums it up best in the deletion discussion. The perpetrators of that war eventually turned on each other, and the nominator of the deletion was indefinitely blocked for bad behavior. Another outline that was similarly trolled around that time had its deletion overturned at DRV in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review/Log/2019_June_6#c-Sandstein-2019-06-14T16:55:00.000Z-6_June_2019 The main premise of deleting the Outline of Florence was that it was a content fork. However, the term "content fork" is a classification that includes acceptable and unacceptable forms, but the term wasn't used that way. Unfortunately, at the time, some well established page types were missing from that guideline, and the guideline itself was very poorly written and structured. Disclaimer: I updated the guideline about a year ago to reflect the status quo, and recorded the missing de facto standard page types, without opposition by the guideline's watchers (the page is closely monitored). It has had plenty of time to season, and has been tested via application in multiple deletion discussions since. Please take a look. (Here's a before/after diff). Outline of Florence was created to be part of a set and compares favorably with the outlines of other cities in and around Italy, including Outline of Rome, Outline of Vatican City, Outline of Milan, Outline of Naples, Outline of Palermo, Outline of Turin, Outline of Venice, and Outline of San Marino. Please overturn its deletion. Thank you. Sincerely, — The Transhumanist 11:18, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. If the deletion was a "personal attack", this belongs in AN/I, not DRV. Or rather, belonged, seeing as this drama took place five years ago. The subsequent banning of the AfD nominator does not invalidate the result of the AfD ex post facto. I see nothing improper in how Jo-Jo Eumerus closed it. There was a rough consensus to delete, even if we ignore the nomination itself.
- The appellant is arguing on policy basis, so this appeal doesn't qualify under DRVPURPOSE#3. We are presented with a long list of OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but unlike, say, Outline of Rome or Outline of Turin, the deleted article contained a grand total of 64 words of prose before the long list of wikilinks, much of which is already covered in Template:Florence landmarks. And by the way, Outline of Turin has received 80 pageviews over the past 30 days, and Outline of Venice - 36. Hardly the useful navigational tool it was purported to be. Of course, the appellant doesn't need our permission to submit a fresh draft to AfC, and I have no objection to REFUNDing to draft or to a new AfD, hopefully without the interpersonal drama. Owen× ☎ 12:50, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse (I voted in the AfD and gave actual reasons why this timeline was bad). The other stuff reason given here is interesting: based on that perfectly valid AfD and looking at e.g. Outline of Venice, I see more reasons to delete that outline based on the AfD, than to restore the Florence one based on the existence of the Venice one. Fram (talk) 13:09, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse Agree with Fram on all counts. Reywas92Talk 13:40, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- Speedy moot, a five year old AfD isn't going to be overturned. If you want the text to work on a new version, just ask an admin. If someone feels it needs a new AfD once in mainspace (or Venice needs deleted), it can be filed. Star Mississippi 14:20, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- Allow recreation if it is believed that something is needed fom DRV. WP:NOTDUP applies to outlines. The section I'm linking to fails to mention outlines by name, but the start of the guideline does. Glossaries, indexes and timelines are also not duplicative to whatever, i.e. not redundant. Outlines can be good or bad. Good outlines can become featured outlines and these exist, believe it or not: Category:FL-Class Outlines articles. Florence was a country and a capital of a significant modern era power, and it's just a big topic with a bunch of stuff going on. That should increase the suitability of this outline topic and not lead to a conclusion that an outline with a lot of information is duplicative to the article. I protest this invalid rationale. Ultimately, WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP. So if there is a perception that it is duplicative, try doing something about it editorially, and see if there's consensus for making the outline more abstracted etc.—Alalch E. 15:46, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- I participated in that AfD, but that was an AfD where the I don't like it's trumped the I like it's. There's no reason to keep it deleted if we have other outlines of other similar pages. SportingFlyer T·C 22:01, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - It is not entirely clear whether the appellant is asking to overturn the AFD to No Consensus or Keep, or whether the appellant is asking to recreate an outline in draft form subject to review.
- This is an unserious appeal that consists of too many insults. The appellant says that they were personally attacked or trolled by this nomination, and claims that the nomination was part of the "portal wars" of 2019. The appellant did not raise any issue about a personal attack within the past five years.
- To refresh anyone's memory, the appellant started the portal wars by creating thousands of low-quality portals by an automated technique. This prompted a review of both recently created (2018 and 2019) portals and existing portals. Certain types of portals, including those created by automation, have been deprecated.
- The ArbCom case was inconclusive about portals because, as an ArbCom case, it focused on conduct. The ArbCom case resulted in one administrator desysopped for personal attacks, which was a Super Maria effect. The ArbCom case also resulted in an RFC on portal guidelines which fizzled out. We have no portal guidelines because it was discovered that the long-existing guidelines had never been properly ratified. An RFC to ratify the long-existing guidelines failed, probably because there was and is division and polarization in the community over portals.
- The original nominator of the AFD was indefinitely blocked for personal attacks (on a now-banned user), not for flawed nominations.
- Endorse the original close as Delete. The closer was correct and the appellant has not established any error.
- Allow Recreation of Draft for review.
- Robert McClenon (talk) 05:11, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't get this. We can either endorse or overturn the afd - I don't have a strong opinion on that, I don't find outlines at all useful as a reader even compared to the minimal usefulness of categories, but I'm willing to accept that other people do - but I can't imagine a new version of this that wouldn't be a G4. There isn't enough room in the format to make a substantive change. Sure, you can rewrite the three sentences of prose at the start, or use different illustrations, or pick a different subset of articles to link to, but it'll essentially be the same thing we deleted. If we tell the appellant here that we're not going to just undelete the old version like he demands (and I'm using that word advisedly), but we'll let him have it back only if we arbitrarily make him rewrite it for the sake of making him do more work and no other reason, that's a rotten thing to do. —Cryptic 11:35, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- (Closing admin) I don't buy the claim that the nomination was a personal attack on anyone, there is no evidence for one thing. From what I remember, there was a major dispute back then on whether portals and outlines were actually useful or not, but I don't think that the existence of this dispute automatically invalidates an AfD on an outline page. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 15:43, 21 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse and disallow recreation as there's no actual argument presented for doing anything else other than AfD-round-2-ing. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:17, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Speedy endorse, 5 year old AFD, if you want to recreate then there are channels for that. Stifle (talk) 08:50, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- endorse This page would have been part of the ‘outline of knowledge’ that was a vanity project of the nom from the very early days of the project, where they hijacked or copied pages intended for other purposes to create a series of pseudoarticle/forks that thankfully never caught on. Fundamentally they all retold information already contained in existing articles so there is no loss in it being expunged. Spartaz Humbug! 19:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. Regretfully, growth and refinement requires some culling, and a lot of dedication into experiments that didn’t work out means it has to go. I am thinking of Portals and Outlines. Both should be archived. SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:12, 24 September 2024 (UTC)
- Allow recreation: per Cryptic's very pragmatic and sensible comment:
I can't imagine a new version of this that wouldn't be a G4. (...) If we tell the appellant here that we're not going to just undelete the old version (...), but we'll let him have it back only if we arbitrarily make him rewrite it for the sake of making him do more work and no other reason, that's a rotten thing to do.
(i.e. allow moving the Draft to Main; if someone wants to take it again to AfD then, they can).-My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 21:01, 26 September 2024 (UTC)- That's... practically the exact opposite of what I was trying to say. If we're going to allow recreation, we should just undelete the old version. If we're not willing to undelete the old version, we shouldn't allow recreation. Or is there already a complete draft recreation that I'm not aware of? —Cryptic 00:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Not sure if it's complete @Cryptic but believe Draft:Outline of Florence is what @The Transhumanist is wishing to restore or merge with the deleted draft or... something else? Star Mississippi 01:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I found that. It's objectively worse than the deleted version, while at the same time I'd've acted on a G4 tag on it in mainspace absent this DRV. If we want this, we want the best version of it we can manage - everyone agrees on that, right? - and I guess I don't see the point of getting there in anything but the most straightforward, least-effort way possible. Unless it's just spite. The only thing we could do that would be worse would be to not make up our minds until he finishes the rewrite and then decide to redelete it. —Cryptic 01:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- if we want this, we want the best version of it we can manage - everyone agrees on that, right absolutely.
- I personally think regardless of our personal opinion on this outline or outlines as a whole, this isn't even a case where DRV is needed. We're not overturning an AfD this old and it's probably time for a new discussion based either on the restored, the draft or a combo thereof. Maybe consensus is the same and maybe not. Star Mississippi 01:50, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Without DRV's intervention, one of three things happens: A) TTH does nothing (further) and we never have an outline at this title. Equivalent to a "Endorse, disallow recreation" outcome here. B) TTH finishes his draftspace reconstruction of the old version and it gets moved into mainspace and nobody speedies it. Unnecessary waste of labor, and we probably end up with a worse version. Equivalent to "Endorse, allow recreation". C) TTH finishes his draftspace reconstruction of the old version and it gets moved into mainspace and it gets speedied. Worst case scenario. Just as unnecessary a waste of labor, and we don't even end up with anything to show for it. Nobody's happy.With DRV's intervention, we either eliminate the possibility of C, or at least TTH knows that the version he's working on will get speedied when it's moved to mainspace, so he'd have no one to blame for the extra work but himself. And we add option D) undelete the old version, which is the same as B but without wasting the labor of manually rebuilding the outline. If we're not sure, we could even undelete the old version and immediately run a new AFD. That's still superior to making him rebuild a new version and AFDing that when he's done.I'm not seeing a path where "DRV does nothing at all" is better. The only one where it's not any worse is scenario A. —Cryptic 02:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yeah, I found that. It's objectively worse than the deleted version, while at the same time I'd've acted on a G4 tag on it in mainspace absent this DRV. If we want this, we want the best version of it we can manage - everyone agrees on that, right? - and I guess I don't see the point of getting there in anything but the most straightforward, least-effort way possible. Unless it's just spite. The only thing we could do that would be worse would be to not make up our minds until he finishes the rewrite and then decide to redelete it. —Cryptic 01:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes,@Cryptic I understand "allow recreation" is practically the opposite of what you proposed. But permit me to quote your sensible comment, all the same! (:D) Now, if you prefer, for the sake of consistency, I am not opposed to overturn. But I was trying to be pragmatic myself. Undelete it, sure, I would be in favour of that, but as long as there was a Draft, I thought we could start there, close this and allow work on it (and let it to be moved to Main) and make sure that that will NOT be G4ed (whatever "that" is: a recreated page/a moved Draft/a refunded/an undeleted page). If you think I should have suggested overturn, then consider I did, and strike my "Allow recreation", I don't mind, as long as the page exists again in the Main sometime later. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 20:28, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- Quoting you again (:D)
If we want this, we want the best version of it we can manage - everyone agrees on that, right? - and I guess I don't see the point of getting there in anything but the most straightforward, least-effort way possible.
Absolutely. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 20:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)- Allowing recreation without undeleting is just about the most-effort way possible. And most pointless. That's the only outcome here I object to (and strenuously). The deleted version looks like the draft, but with a prose intro half again as long; about twice as many headers; roughly four times as many total list items in those headers; and about 30 images compared to the draft's 3. —Cryptic 00:03, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- OK. I thought I had clarified my position (more or less your "D" is the best outcome). And firstly, please bear in mind that I have and had personally no access to the deleted version. But secondly, since you say the deleted article was much better, again, consider I suggest overturn and undelete. (and, also again, feel free to strike my "Allow recreation" if you think that is confusing). I will probably make no further comments here. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 07:39, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Mushy Yank and Cryptic: Here's the deleted version: https://web.archive.org/web/20190509153600/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outline_of_Florence . — The Transhumanist 06:51, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
- OK. I thought I had clarified my position (more or less your "D" is the best outcome). And firstly, please bear in mind that I have and had personally no access to the deleted version. But secondly, since you say the deleted article was much better, again, consider I suggest overturn and undelete. (and, also again, feel free to strike my "Allow recreation" if you think that is confusing). I will probably make no further comments here. -My, oh my! (Mushy Yank) 07:39, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Allowing recreation without undeleting is just about the most-effort way possible. And most pointless. That's the only outcome here I object to (and strenuously). The deleted version looks like the draft, but with a prose intro half again as long; about twice as many headers; roughly four times as many total list items in those headers; and about 30 images compared to the draft's 3. —Cryptic 00:03, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
- Quoting you again (:D)
- Not sure if it's complete @Cryptic but believe Draft:Outline of Florence is what @The Transhumanist is wishing to restore or merge with the deleted draft or... something else? Star Mississippi 01:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
- That's... practically the exact opposite of what I was trying to say. If we're going to allow recreation, we should just undelete the old version. If we're not willing to undelete the old version, we shouldn't allow recreation. Or is there already a complete draft recreation that I'm not aware of? —Cryptic 00:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
I am requesting a review because I am dumbfounded by the interpretation of consensus. The article was nominated for deletion because it fails WP:GNG: it has not received significant coverage in reliable sources. The Keep !votes argue that "she would almost certainly have more sources if historical sources wrote more about women". Somehow this speculative argument has been found to outweigh the fact that there is, in fact, no significant coverage of the subject in reliable sources. Is it now enough to assert that sources would have existed if the world were a different place? Is this going to apply to content disputes as well? Surtsicna (talk) 18:35, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Hello. Please consider restoring the article. It was deleted twice before. The last time on September 19, the article was removed by quick deletion. It was in draft for a long time and then moved to the main space. The article is written in a neutral tone with authoritative sources. There were no claims to significance in the draft. There were questions regarding the style of presentation. The draft has been corrected. However, after moving to the main space, the article was deleted. 195.49.205.23 (talk) 09:43, 19 September 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
I'm filing this on behalf of the editor User:Shubhamgawali1 who worked to expand the article as they are a bit unsure about DRV. He believes the Afd result shouldn't have been redirected as there was insufficient people taking part in the Afd. Shubhamgawali1 suspects the result was wrong and a bit unfair. I was the one who sent the article to the Afd queue. scope_creepTalk 10:10, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
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The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
I created this article many years ago about a piece of specialist software I was using at the time, which was prominent within the industry but not documented on WP. It was deleted at an AfD in 2009 while I was on Wikibreak. The software continues to be considered an industry standard solution within the aerospace sector and is the subject of, or significantly referenced by, several academic articles - see e.g. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=Gasturb. I would like the page to be restored so that I can bring it up to date with appropriate citations. I was advised at WP:UNDELETE to contact the administrator who closed the AfD, however this was 15 years ago and sadly it appears from their talk page that they are deceased. YFB ¿ 19:00, 16 September 2024 (UTC) Withdrawn by nominator as suggested by Owen× — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yummifruitbat (talk • contribs) 20:03, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
- Koi Mil Gaya 3 (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
- Koi... Mil Gaya 3 (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
These rds were deleted per Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 24#Koi Mil Gaya 3, the result was mostly due to non-participation by anyone else beyond the nominator and the non-partipicipation also resulted due to the fact that three very similar rds were incorrectly split into separate noms. The actual discussions took place at the other two: Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Krish 1 and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Koi Mil Gaya 2 both of which consider the same film series and both of which passed (these discussions also revolved around around our current DRVs Koi... Mil Gaya 3 and Koi Mil Gaya 3), I would have commented at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 24#Koi Mil Gaya 3 and linked to the latter discussions but was unaware of the separate listing for the third film in the series. To only delete redirects for this film from the series would appear unfair in light of these discussions. Please read the discussions and see if these rds should be restored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gotitbro (talk • contribs) 15:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse at this time, pending a clearer explanation from the appellant as to what they are asking. These two appeals were confusing before an admin consolidated them, but are still confusing, and I am not sure whether the appellant is even saying that there was an error. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:27, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- I have tried to clarify the nomination. Let me further elaborate, there is a Krrish (film series) which includes three films Koi... Mil Gaya, Krrish and Krrish 3. I had created redirects for alternative names of these: Koi... Mil Gaya 1, Koi... Mil Gaya 2 and Koi... Mil Gaya 3 (also Koi Mil Gaya 3 and the like for punctuation); Krrish 1, Krrish 2 and Krrish 3. All of these were nominated for deletion with the incorrect statement that these aren't used elsewhere or would not be expected by readers both of which were proven to be untrue in the discussions at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Krish 1 and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Koi Mil Gaya 2. Koi... Mil Gaya 3 (also Koi Mil Gaya 3) were unfortunately deleted before the discussion for the rest concluded, as it was a separate listing (Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 24#Koi Mil Gaya 3) which wasn't relisted and did not involve any participation. I am asking for these two to be restored in light of the fuller discussions that took place later. Gotitbro (talk) 03:28, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Gotitbro: You were notified on your talk page about the Koi Mil Gaya 3 nomination. You were also actively participating in the August 31 RfD page for the Krrish entries until two days after the Koi Mil Gaya 3 nomination. Why do you say you were unaware of the listings?
- Why do you say that the nominations were incorrectly split? It is up to the nom to split the entries as per his rationale. Sometimes others do bundle them if they observe duplication, and see benefit in a bundled nomination. No one did so in this case, as I would believe the nominations were split evenly as 1, 2 and 3 ending titles.
- From what I see, the closer chose to delete Koi Mil Gaya 3, but relisted Koi Mil Gaya 2, even though both had zero participation, because of page histories of other (Krrish) entries of the bulk nomination. All entries of that bulk nomination ended as kept based on strength of the Krrish entries. For Koi Mil Gaya 2, there was one vote in favour and one against (by the nom), but I would believe the closer went with keep as an ATD because of less participation.
- The deletion was fine as a standard no-opposition close. The closer Explicit used to treat such closes as soft deletes that are open to reversal, so it should be straightforward to undelete and relist if that is the opinion. Jay 💬 08:30, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- I had made a collated comment at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Krish 1 for all of those discussions. You are right I was notified of one of the listings (Koi Mil Gaya 3). By being unaware I meant that I did not know it was being treated separately and would not be relisted (similar to the 2nd and 1st films) despite my comment at the Krish 1 entry, saying that I am making a reply for all of these listings. I now realize that it is up to the closer to decide to relist and separate listings are treated separately and it was my mistake in not making a comment at the other two entries linking my comment and rationale from Krish 1. Gotitbro (talk) 15:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- It is fair to assume that when Explicit deleted the third and relisted the second, he may not even have been aware of the first set of entries, or the collated discussion, as it was already relisted 3 hours prior by another relister CycloneYoris. Nor did the nomination statements of 2 and 3 have a backlink to 1. Jay 💬 16:35, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- I had made a collated comment at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Krish 1 for all of those discussions. You are right I was notified of one of the listings (Koi Mil Gaya 3). By being unaware I meant that I did not know it was being treated separately and would not be relisted (similar to the 2nd and 1st films) despite my comment at the Krish 1 entry, saying that I am making a reply for all of these listings. I now realize that it is up to the closer to decide to relist and separate listings are treated separately and it was my mistake in not making a comment at the other two entries linking my comment and rationale from Krish 1. Gotitbro (talk) 15:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Allow recreation. Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Koi Mil Gaya 2 demonstrates that the community disagrees with the delete rationale in Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 24#Koi Mil Gaya 3. Such a movie does exist. Koi Mil Gaya 3 is a colloquial way to refer to Krrish 3, the third film in a series of three installments, the first of which is named Koi Mil Gaya.—Alalch E. 20:18, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
- Restore or allow recreation. This was basically a soft deletion, and the different results in the other RfDs now offer ample reason to undo it. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 04:04, 26 September 2024 (UTC)