Talk:Ostara (Wicca)

Ishtar

Does anyone have any evidence or anything indicating a possible linking of both Ostara and Easter with the Feast of Ishtar?

It seems to me a strange co-incidence if there is no link, as Ishtar was said to descend to earth in the spring in a giant egg.

It's a bunch of rubbish. In all lands where "Ishtar" was known/worshipped, the Christian holiday was NEVER called "Easter", "Ostern", or anything resembling such words. It's called "Passover" (or some variant)--the Greek "Pascha" (usually translated as "Easter" in English) simply is the Greek word for "Passover". Such speculation regarding Ishtar is purely a modern product of people who do not bother actually doing some linguistic and historical study. Dogface 21:16, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

So... what you're saying here is that it's a strange co-incidence and futhermore that this strange co-incidence and anyone who makes note of it in any way makes you really, really angry for some reason.

Enlightening.

By the way -- how exactly do you know? The Christian holiday 'Hallowe'en' is NEVER called 'Samhain' except in Ireland, yet it's derived from it.

I know from actually having studied history. So, why do you refuse to sign your comments?Dogface (talk) 01:38, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

'Said to descend to earth' - 'said to' by whom? What are the sources? Are you actually citing a direct Sumerian source, or a modern neopagan work? Unfortunately, a lot of 'said tos' turn out to be modern invention, *especially* in the case of putative links to the past; and the giant egg business would only be a 'strange coincidence' if it was an authentic piece of Sumerian or Babylonian myth. If you want to look into the history of festivals, I recommend Hutton's 'Seasons of the Sun'. Cavalorn 11:23, 26 May 2005 (UTC)

The word Easter comes from Ostara. It is a reasonable question to ask 'Is there a link between the names Ishtar and Ostara?' Unfortunately there is absolutely no clear evidence. It's possible that, like the words, 'Deva' in India and Deus/Zeus in Latin (and Tiwas in Celtic Europe) there is a connection. But unfortunately Ishtar comes from a Semitic language which means from the arabian area. These people were specifically not connected to the vast pasturalist migrations of the Indo-europeans. So the theory looks very weak from that perspective. The only possibility is that, though the word is Akkadian, which came up from the Arabian area around 3000BC and became a twin used language with Summerian, that the word itself was fed in from the north around the same time. But there's no way to tell or suggest that so it's pure speculation which goes distincly against the evidence. But actually it's completely possible. The Indo-european migrations started with the Hittite migration in 4500 to 3500 BC according to the wikipedia page 'Indo-European Migrations'. That puts the Hittites very much on the borders of Mesopotamia well before the Akkadian language started being heavily used in Mesopotamia. So if there's a common source of Ishtar/Ostara from the same area and time as the source of dyeus/tiwas, then it's possible.

Sources Needed

... --Chèvredansante 03:57, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

This article is already well-sourced, so, on examining the log, I am puzzled as to why you saw fit to add the {{unsourced}} template (which I have removed). I've added two footnotes just to be game, but they were overkill and unnecessary. If there is some specific assertion you'd like sourced, please note it. -SM 14:42, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry. It didn't look sourced enough at the time. Withdrawn. → Chèvredan∫ante ^{talk · contrib} 03:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I seem to agree with you before you changed your mind. I added a number of fact tags to the article. Jkelly 04:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The fact tags seem to have disappeared, but there still don't appear to be any cites to speak of. We have one book (Grimm) that references the name of the goddess, but we're apparently lacking anything for any of the other statements. I don't necessarily contest those statements - I know from experience that at least some of them are considered by Wiccans to be true - but they do seem to need additional support in order to comply with Wikipedia's reference standards. Fact tags added - probably ineptly - please feel free to remove them again if they're genuinely not warranted. Also, reference to Grimm tidied into standard format. - Shrivenzale (talk) 14:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Pagan versus Wiccan Festival

"Modern Pagan" is an oximoron; "Neopagan" is not. The Neopagan traditions that celebrate Ostara have been influenced by Traditional Witchcraft (alias Wicca). --→ Chèvredan∫ante ^{talk · contrib} 03:39, 9 February 2006 (UTC) i thought that wicca was only about 50 years old and therefor is not an alias for traditional witchcraft..... tradtional witchcraft being very limited in sources now and being the very old way of life for witches in the middle ages and before chritianity came to europe

There's nothing "traditional" about Wicca. It is not reconstructive and is definitively new age. :bloodofox: 02:44, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

If your goal is to identify Wicca with the New age movement, I suggest discussing that at Talk:Wicca rather than adding it into articles that mention it elsewhere. I'd recommend bringing along very solid references; it is a contentious claim. Jkelly 03:05, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm more concerned about the state of this article than I am in editing this one any further. There's no point in discussing the status of Wicca as "neopaganism" or "new age" - It appropriates various unrelated cultures while largely emphasizing psuedo-Celtic imagery - It's clearly both. What it is not, however, is reconstructive in any manner, which means that whenever it's mentioned in an article with a historical basis, it belongs in a "modern use" section and, furthermore, besides other groups that recognize the holiday and not referencelessly mishmashed all over the article as if it were some sort of "tradition" and not a modern invention. :bloodofox: 03:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Suggest merge

I think we should the poorly written Ostara to Eostre. Much of what is detailed in this entry is actually about Eostre. Feedback? --WeniWidiWiki 03:23, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. :bloodofox: 03:24, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Let me express the pious hope that if Ostara-the-festival must be merged into Eostre-the-historical-reference, the distinctions will be preserved between Bede's mention, Jacob Grimm's speculation, and recent neopagan inventions. My further hope is that the resulting entry isn't chopped to pieces by "citation needed" notices the way this one is. Bede may or may not have been mistaken about Eostre, but there's no question what he said. Asking for supporting citations where no other sources exist is pointless. --tnh 3:48, 08 April 2006 (UTC)

lover-consort-son, not lover-brother-son

I don't recall ever reading that the God was a brother to the Goddess, especially in Wicca. In fact, the only 'creation' story I have heard was the God choosing to seperate from just being One with her, to worship her (this is only one interpretation). Then the whole cycle starts (which is known throughout Wicca) with them falling in love, the God and Goddess getting married (consumating), having a child, then the God dies (some choose to believe in the Holly/Oak kind or another type of story), but is reborn in the Goddess as her son. I am going to change it, unless someone would like to cite their source and change it back. Thanks. :) Disinclination 04:30, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

My latest revert

I couldn't explain it very well, with only a short amount of words. Ostara, in the Wiccan religion, is always celebrated on or around the Spring Equinox. And the way the editor had put it, saying it was earlier celebrated as a lunar holiday, alludes to Wicca being an older religion than it truely is. If you would like to put it somewhere else on the article, please tell us why on here. Ostara is a solar holiday, it is the returning of the Goddess and the God's power and light. Disinclination 17:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

April 13

Since when was it celebrated on April 13? I've never heard of this. It's usually the Spring Equinox. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Totnesmartin (talk • contribs) 16:52, 7 December 2006 (UTC).

Changed it. Thanks for noticing. :) Disinclination 21:34, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Unless I've been doing it wrong each year... :) Totnesmartin 22:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering why Ostara is referred to as a celtic mid-spring holiday. I have always read it was a germanically rooted festival. Do the Celtics really observe anything related to Ostara? also I think refering to it as a rebirth of light links this celebration more to the germanic yule or winter solstice as the birth of light instead of Ostara as more of a resurrection of life. these discriptions are reflected in the christian adoption of such holidays. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.49.146.19 (talk) 02:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Ostara and Ostara (Easter festival)

These appear to be nearly the same article. Why do both exist? I think they need to be merged. Aleta 23:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I also have to ask, why the merge tag for merging Ostara and Eostre was removed. (Merging these two articles had been suggested by WeniWidiWiki 23 March 2006, the merge tag had been removed by Rob T Firefly 13 June 2006; see discussion above.) Rob T Firefly stated No merge consensus for removing the merge tag; however, there was a consensus that the articles should be merged, tnh only expressed his concern that references to Jacob Grimm and Bene should be preserved. Considering that other diskussion we had, Aleta, I have looked up why Lanz von Liebenfels called his magazine Ostara, see Ostara (magazine). He might have had an important role in the popularization of the name Ostara and should definitively be mentioned in the article on Ostara, too. Zara1709 15:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I think merging Ostara (Easter festival) and Ostara is a no-brainer. We also need to create a disambig for Ostara (magazine), Ostara (band), etc. I do not think Eostre should be merged, because I think it can stand on it's own merit at this point, and the Wiccan festival should not be confused with the hypothetical goddess Bede wrote about. - WeniWidiWiki 15:57, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

But how many people do really celebrate a festival called Ostara? The people that do will definitely have taken it somehow from Bede or Grimm. I respect the beliefs of these people, but they have a tendency to copy each other without quoting. The primary points the article should mention are basically Bede and Grimm. I've had a similar problem while researching information on Lost lands; There are like 30.000 publications on Atlantis, but all you really need to mention is Plato, Francis Bacon and Ignatius L. Donnelly, since everyone else has copied from them. Zara1709 16:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I am of the opinion that we need Ostara (Neopagan holiday) or somesuch and a separate Eostre entry for the historical hypothesis, along with a strong disambig page. Neopagan and occult fakelore notwithstanding, Ostara has become a part of popular culture, and we've gone around and around about having the Wiccan "Wheel of the Year" and "Sabbat" templates on entries which deal with historical concepts already. - WeniWidiWiki 16:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

So basically you propose that we have one article dealing with the supposed goddess Oestre/Ostara and one with the neopagan holiday. I can agree with that. I would than put a short note on Lanz von Liebenfels in the Oestre/Ostara article. People who just want to know something about a neopagan holiday of spring and grown probably don't need to know that it also was the name of one of the worst racist publications ever. Zara1709 17:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, although awhile back there was massive editing to tone DOWN the "Wiccanness" of these articles because they dealt too much with the Wiccan holidays. Disinclination 19:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I redirected Ostara (Easter festival) to Ostara and expanded Ostara (disambiguation). Please take a look and modify or expand as needed. - WeniWidiWiki 19:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Now that the article is reduced merely to a description of the holiday, I'd like to suggest to move it to Ostara (holiday) and redirect Ostara to the disambiguation page. -Zara1709 17:24, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The 'Influence of Wicca'

'This holiday is also celebrated by Neopagan groups who have been largely influenced by Wicca.'

I would disagree with this statement, and the general tone of the article relating this festival to Wiccan movements, as many unrelated Pagan traditions also celebrate this festival, for example Norse.

DTJNeolithic 02:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Removed parts

After I stumbled about a scholarly description, I took the liberty of rewriting the article. I removed several sections, I think they are all incorporated in the Eostre article:

Etymology

Main article: Eostre

Etymologically, Ostara probably shares a common root with the word "east", the direction in which dawn rises. It is mistakenly thought by some to be related to the words "estrogen" and "estrus". These words, however, are in fact derived from the Greek οἶστρος (oistros), meaning "gadfly" or "frenzy".

Modern Ostara

According to Bede and Einhard, the month Eostremonat/Ostarmanoth was equated with April. If this month was named after a goddess Eostre/Ostara, this would put the start of 'Ostara's Month' after the Equinox in March. However, it must be taken into account that these 'translations' of calendar months were approximate as the old forms were predominantly lunar months while the new were based on a solar year. As a new moon, signaling the start of a lunar month, does not have a fixed date, it is difficult to equate Eostremonat/Ostara-Month precisely with the Vernal Equinox, which occurs at a relatively precise time and date.

The holiday is a celebration of the return of spring and growth, the renewal of life that appears on the earth after the winter.

Ostara is the Old High German name for the Easter festival. [false!] The term is plural because the old festival lasted several days. A rough translation would be 'The Easters'. [Not which Grimm!]

Grimm hypothesized that the name Ostara may have been a regional variation related to the Anglo-Saxon goddess Eostre, detailed by the Venerable Bede. Eostre also was said to have a festival lasting several days. Bede indicated that this name was used in English when the Paschal holiday was introduced. This name was then converted to Easter, or Ostern in German.

Jare/ Jore

Jare was (and is, in Slavic Neopagan community) an important Slavic celebration, that took place on 21 March (each year). Similiarly, the Baltic religion contains the holiday of Jore, which is generally the same. Check eg. the site of Romuva - http://romuva.lt . Why there is no mention about this holiday and yet it's claimed that there was NO Northern European celebration around Vernal Equinox? It doesn't mean, of course, that Ostara is related to Jare/Jore, but gives the reader the wider look. Regards, Critto —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 19:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

references

-Zara1709 17:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)