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Moor from Mauri

I frankly don't understand why this article is separated from the one for Mauri, since the word Moor is originally from Mauri, which was used by Romans, and by the native Mauri (inhabitants of the Kingdom of Mauretania and the Roman provinces that ensued from them) to designate themselves, indicating as Gabriel Camps suggests that it may be originally a Berber word that went into Greek then Latin. The claim of the first paragraph of the article that it was an "exonym" in that sense, is not accurate, and much less is the claim that it was an equivalent of Muslim. The term was and remained much more strongly associated with Northwest Africa and its proxy regions (e.g. Andalusia) than any other place, and a cursory search in the literature is sufficient indication, that it was mainly a geographical term that was sometimes abused and generalized, but most often retained its original significance (check the number of hits for "Moorish Morocco" vs "Moorish Egypt" or any other region, on Google Books or Google Scholar for instance). --Ideophagous (talk) 10:23, 03 April 2021 (UTC+2)

Moor Means Black

Samuel Johnson's A Dictionary Of The English Language (1755, online version) definition of Moor:

MOOR. n.s. [moer, Dutch; modder, Teutonick, clay.]

1. A marsh; a fen; a bog; a tract of low and watry grounds.

2. [Maurus, Latin.] A negro; a black-a-moor.

"I shall answer that better than you can the getting up of the negro’s belly; the moor is with child by you. Shakesp." 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:85E2:BDCB:637:D9D5 (talk) 10:24, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What change to the article do you have in mind?

Please note that "moor" is a word of uncertain etymology and with varying denotations and connotations in different contexts, which is (or should be) the subject of this article.Nø (talk) 12:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is, there is one connotation that is glaringly missing from the article page. There are many moorish cultural traditions in Europe, from morris dancing to zwarte piet in Holland.

The article could include Saint Maurice. (Atlanta Black Star) Moors, Saints, Knights and Kings: The African Presence in Medieval and Renaissance Europe. Also here: (SMITHSONIAN MAG) Not All the Knights of the Round Table Were White.

On Sir Morien: “He was all black, even as I tell ye: his head, his body, and his hands were all black, saving only his teeth. His shield and his armour were even those of a Moor, and black as a raven.”. 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:B5AA:96B:F68F:4FF5 (talk) 19:00, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Moor doesn't mean black. There are historical references to white Moors and black Moors. These terms are still used in Mauritania today, where the 'white Moors' are Berbers/Arabs who rule the country and 'black Moors' are descendants of black slaves. Ario1234 (talk) 01:26, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Saint Maurice was an Egyptian. He's depicted as white and black in historical artworks. In Egypt the Copts depict him as white. Ario1234 (talk) 01:29, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Even if that were the case, why are there no depictions of Black Moors on the page, at all? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 01:32, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's a couple of depictions of black Moors. But it's true the existence of black Moors isn't properly addressed or explained. Ario1234 (talk) 01:45, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It looks like previous editors of the page wanted to push back against the conspiracy theory that the Moors were black and that modern North Africans are just recent invaders. Ario1234 (talk) 02:03, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Now you're implying that Samuel Johnson is an 'Afrocentrist' conspiracy theorist. 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 02:12, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, but selectively citing a source like Samuel Johnson and ignoring other evidence is the sort of thing that conspiracy theorists do. Ario1234 (talk) 02:30, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually you're projecting your own agenda onto others. You are very selectively ignoring the massive depiction of Moors as Black. And how is citing Samuel Johnson's dictionary definitions of Moor 'selectively citing a source'? Is there evidence that Samuel Johnson elsewhere said the moors were White that I'm ignoring? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 02:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No I'm not ignoring anything. I already said there are historical references to both white Moors and black Moors, as well as artistic depictions of white Moors and black Moors, and I told you that the terms 'White Moor' and 'Black Moor' are still used in Mauritania today Ario1234 (talk) 02:47, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A Problematic Start To The Article

"The term Moor is an exonym first used by Christian Europeans to designate the Muslim populations of the Maghreb, al-Andalus (Iberian Peninsula), Sicily and Malta during the Middle Ages.[1]"

This is demonstrably untrue. The Moors were often depicted as Christians, especialy Saint Maurice.

What is going on here is 1) the obfuscation of the presence of Black Africans in Europe and 2) the conflation of the terms Moor, Berber and Muslim. This is Christian Europeans depicting Saint Maurice, as a Moor, not long after Moorish rule ended in Spain, in 1491 with the Treaty of Grenada:

Matthias Grünewald, Saints Erasmus and Mauritius, 1520-1524

Saint Maurice, 1525

"Originally the wing of an altarpiece, this panel represents Maurice, the Roman legion commander martyred for refusing to slaughter Christians. It was likely commissioned by Cardinal Albrecht of Brandenburg (1490–1545), the most powerful prelate in the Holy Roman Empire...". Notice that the lifelike depiction in these and many other paintings proves the presence of African people in Europe in the early 1500s.

Why is this image from the 'Arab Agricultural Revolution' page not included? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 02:35, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unsourced Claim

"Castillian ambassadors attempting to convince Moorish Almohad king Abu Hafs Umar al-Murtada to join their alliance (contemporary depiction from the Cantigas de Santa María)"

What is the source for this statement? What is the evidence that this individual is Moorish Almohad king Abu Hafs al-Murtada? Or is Moorish? Or even a Muslim? 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 11:58, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Those labels and others are probably based on this book Alfonso X and The Cantigas de Santa Maria: A Poetic Biography (1998): https://archive.org/details/alf_20231212/page/n27/mode/2up 41.222.179.226 (talk) 12:37, 31 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"probably"? What standard of referencing is that?

The page's actual and only caption reads:

"9. Abu Yusuf, the emir of Benimerines, is defeated in Morocco by Christian knights bearing the banner of Holy Mary. Cantigas de Santa Maria, 181. Escorial MS T.I.l."

So, not the Moorish Almohad King Abu Hafs al-Murtada?

In fact, the Benimerimes had overthrown the Almohads.

Wikipedia: "They emerged after the fall of the Almohad Empire" 2001:1C00:1E20:D900:D108:E292:4ECE:682B (talk) 13:57, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Evidently, I never went through the whole book, but skimmed through and saw that some illustrations do name certain figures/events and have a history behind them, that was my false assumption for others.

Here's an obscure website I managed to find, but it is polemic against "Afrocentrism" and not credible, it labels the image in question as 'King Umar al-Murtada, the Almohad ruler of Morocco, is persuaded to ally with Christians.' https://www.angelfire.com/md/8/moors.html However this link is completely unreliable in this case for obvious reasons.

Something to note is here on the The Oxford Cantigas de Santa Maria database search, 'Umar al-Murtada' is on the named persons, but it does not show in which codex rendition or poem the reference has him listed on. https://csm.mml.ox.ac.uk/index.php?p=poem_search

I came across this on Alamy as well, which has a label for that image, but this is a stock website.

https://www.alamy.com/a-portrait-of-moorish-almohad-king-abu-hafs-umar-al-murtada-from-the-cantigas-de-santa-mara-north-africa-and-southern-spain-were-united-politically-during-the-11th-13th-centuries-under-a-dynasty-of-berber-origins-the-almohad-empire-extending-from-the-atlantic-to-tripoli-in-present-day-libya-and-from-current-mauritania-in-the-south-to-the-walls-of-toledo-in-the-iberian-peninsula-to-the-north-the-largest-ever-european-african-empire-image417856384.html

Anyway, regardless, I noticed the picture has now been removed as contested for the time being. Maybe someone else can find a direct and clear academic source as we see for Abu Yusuf, the Emir of Benimerines. 41.222.177.181 (talk) 15:14, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]