Talk:Sacré-Cœur, Paris

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Changes

I've tidied up this entry, moving all historical references into one section, all architectural comments into another, and all religious information into a third. I've escaped all special characters in the text (accented letters), corrected some typos, added a pronunciation key, removed all but two photos, deleted a historical reference that was not highly relevant to the article (details on wars), and generally cleaned up the layout of the article so that information is logically arranged. Agateller 08:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Copyright status

This text was taken from a copyrighted source: http://www.paris.org/Monuments/Sacre.Coeur/ (notice added by User:Rmhermen)

This link has been added to the entry, so that sensible readers can judge for themselves. Wetman 01:07, 27 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I've reworked the text, so any copyright issues should be moot now. Agateller 08:33, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

Body & Blood

This is a minor note, but I feel like it needs to be made anyway. I've returned "Body and Blood" to the transubstantiation quote because the Church's Eucharistic doctrine teaches that because Christ is risen, his Body & Blood are reunited. True, when the host is consecrated, it becomes the Body of Christ, and the "wine" becomes His Blood, however, when the priest "commingles" the species (places a fragment of the host into the chalice) it is to demonstrate that Christ is Risen, and his Body & Blood are now reunited. Each host is both Body & Blood, and each sip of "wine" is likewise both Body & Blood. This is why communion under only one species ("bread" or "wine" alone) is acceptable. (See Catechism 1390) -- Essjay · Talk 20:53, Jun 23, 2005 (UTC)

Angels

some details about the angles beneath the dome please just in the entrance -- 09:59, 23 October 2005‎ 82.123.42.198

Construction history

The construction history of this still-controversial monument to the Catholic Right was recently blanked, with a misleading edit summary. Perhaps more detail on the publicly-expressed resistance to the Sacré-Coeur needs to be incorporated into the text. We need closer neutral and scupulous supervision here.--Wetman 16:59, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Montmart[r]e?

Is Montmarte at all an appropriate or historical spelling? I noticed two occurrences: in the infobox and in one of the bibliography entries, but I haven't corrected them, in case it's actually correct. Can anyone shed some light on this? Jogloran (talk) 11:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Per our Montmartre article, the spelling with the second "r" is correct.

Atlant (talk) 21:38, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The Bells of Sacre Coeur

This basilica has five bells; the heaviest is the largest bell in France. There should be a section describing the artifacts of these bells. --Nebula2357 (talk) 20:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Political aspects

Something needs to be added regarding the provocative political nature of the church, especially while it was still under construction. The mostly impoverished residents of Montmartre generally loathed it, as symbolizing the corrupt Third Republic that repressed them while supporting the wealthy -- the same government that had overthrown the Commune. It was several times a target of anarchist bombers during the 1890s. --Michael K. Smith (talk) 19:19, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

I note that you haven't been active for a long time and may no longer be active on Wiki. I think I would generally like to see stronger source referencing regarding the politics surrounding the location of the Basilica. A much greater information is now available and there is probably no excuse for political commentary without verifiable source links. 2003:CB:6F10:B601:2C86:F347:DA64:9A48 (talk) 12:36, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Alsace-Lorraine

I seem to remember that there's some inscription or memorial to the loss of Alsace-Lorraine in or near the church. Also should probably mention the climb to the dome -- about half-way up, there's a dramatic view of the inside of the church from above, while on the outside there's a good view of much of Paris... AnonMoos (talk) 14:06, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

Bombs

We enjoyed visiting this monument this past summer. I noticed the plaque inside showing the place where bombs had fallen during the (WWII?). I was hoping to see that information expanded on in this article. 50.137.169.144 (talk) 23:37, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

There is indeed a plaque but it's hard to find, and harder to find a picture of it. As you walk in the front doors, turn around. The plaque is on the back of one of the door pillars. I sneaked and took a picture that is somewhere in my archives. With my limited ability in French, I managed the following understanding. The plaque is in memory of a night during WWII when the villagers were in the church for a service. The air raid sirens sounded, and the people began to hurry to their homes, but the priest stopped them. He said that they should stay in the church and pray for the safety of the church and their houses. There is a map of the village showing where a stick of 6-8 German bombs were dropped in a line across the village, not hitting the church or a single house. The plaque was placed there in memory of the night when the Lord God answered the prayers of the villagers. Dms489 (talk) 22:05, 19 January 2017 (UTC)dms489Dms489 (talk)

I just found the picture, but don't know how to upload it for you. The date was April 20, 1944, and it was 13 bombs. My crude translation of the last sentence is: "The priest of the Basilica and the inhabitants of the neighborhood, touched by this manifest intervention of Providence have offered to the heart of Jesus this memorial of their recollections (?)." [The last French word is 'reconnaissance' - there may be a better way to translate it.] Dms489 (talk) 22:20, 19 January 2017 (UTC)dms489

How do I upload an image and reference it here? Dms489 (talk) 22:29, 19 January 2017 (UTC)dms489

Hi Dms489. That plaque (it's text and possibly images or other artistic expression included in it) is assumed copyrighted unless you have affirmative evidence it has been placed (or fallen) into the public domain, or released under a suitably free copyright license, which is the burden of the uploader. Without providing such affirmative and verifiable evidence, you cannot upload it here or to the Commons (or rather, if you do, it will be deleted as a copyright infringement). Note that generally anonymous French works are copyrighted until 70 years from publication, but you can't assume its anonymous and if it's not, it's 70 years after the year of death of the author. Best regards--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:50, 19 January 2017 (UTC)

Is it Monument historique?

How can I find out? Tomer T (talk) 08:07, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

French Monuments Historiques [1] are listed on the Mérimée database for architecture [2] and for objects on the Mobilier-Palissy database [3]. Searching this database is not easy, I usually use Google, restricting the search to site:http://www.culture.gouv.fr/public/mistral/merimee_fr and go back to the search interface if necessary (useful when searching information about architects and their work - disclaimer: I speak fluently French). If you don't want to spend hours looking for it, I warmly recommend to know at least the "arrondissement" or, better, the "commune" where the building or notable object is located, before hitting the search button.

That's for the complicated way. The easiest way IMHO is to cheat on the French wiki (for the buildings though): https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_monuments_historiques_par_d%C3%A9partement or https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_monuments_historiques_du_18e_arrondissement_de_Paris

To my surprise the basilica du sacré coeur de Montmartre is not a monument historique yet. Its organ however is protected as monument historique[4][5]

Hope made myself clear. --Alberto Fernandez Fernandez (talk) 10:43, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! Tomer T (talk) 14:55, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

"Basilica of the Sacred Heart of Paris"

Does anyone really call it this in English? I've only ever seen it written with its French name. 2602:306:CFEA:170:59A9:8236:43F6:FD67 (talk) 22:49, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

POV issues in "Basilica" section

This section needs a rewrite for WP:NPOV - right now I don't feel that it adequately and fairly represents anyone's perspective on the building's construction. I see from comments on this talk page dating back more than a decade that the communard perspective was previously not addressed; I've added another line to help with that, but it's not enough to fix it overall. It looks to me like the current state of the section might be the result of an attempt to keep it carefully NPOV, but it's only succeeded in representing everyone's opinions equally poorly. More historical background is necessary here. -- asilvering (talk) 20:19, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Departure of artists from Montmartre

The lead of the article currently says "So great was the dislike of Sacré-Cœur at the fin de siècle that the Montmartre group of artists, including van Gogh, Matisse, Degas and Toulouse-Lautrec, decamped en masse to Montparnasse." But this is not exactly true.

Vincent van Gogh left Paris in 1888 not because of the Basilica of Sacre-Coeur, but because of his mental health. He moved to Auvers-sur-Oise, where he committed suicide in 1890.

Edgar Degas lived in Montmartre from 1872-73 and from 1878 to 1882. He lived in the same area of the city throughout his whole career.

Toulouse-Lautrec lived in different locations in Montmartre between between 1882 and his death in 1901. He did not move to Montparnasse.

Henri Matisse was only two years old at the time of the Paris Commune. He lived in Montmartre between 1901 and 1910, then moved to the South of France, not to Montparnasse. He didn't move because of the Basilica.

The major reason that some artists left Montmartre for Montparnasse was not the Basilica of Sacre-Coeur, but the gentrification of Montmartre, higher rents for studios, and the closing of the Bateau Lavoir, the most important artist's studio. The other major reason was the beginning of the First World War in 1914.SiefkinDR (talk) 12:52, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

References